Apple's Leopard rejects latest version of Java Apple faces yet more flack from the Mac faithful over the discovery that the operating system won't run the latest version of Java. It's one of several beefs relating to the OS X upgrade that is sparking vitriol among the normally docile crowd. Leopard may have 300 new features, but it is unable to run Java 1.6, even though …
While I generally respect The Register, this is hardly news: "new OS has some compatibility problems". It would be wonderful if a new OS from anyone was flawless but it's never the case and it always takes a short (or long in some cases) while for such issues to be sorted. You're making more out of this than it is - and so are the developers who are crying because just a couple of days out and this issue isn't fixed. Any IT pro or developer with any common sense does not leap to ANY new OS on day one.
I think that the main problem is that Apple are deleting posts off their own support forums, as if the issues surrounding java didn't even exist. That certainly is newsworthy. If they posted a quick reply saying that there was an issue and that they're looking into it, that'd probably be fine as a starter for ten. By sticking their heads in the sand and willing the problem to go away, they don't do themselves any favours.
That said, any professional developer who upgrades to a brand new OS on the day of release on their production machine deserves to be beaten with a copy of his or her change control process.
I write Java software for a living and I have to say, Mac OS X is still the best Java platform despite the missing Java 6. "It just works" is true here and very much so. In fact, unless you are doing an internal project, you would not be wise to use Java 6 anyway because even on Windows or Linux, the installed base would be quite low and you would simply annoy people with an enormous JRE download that doesn't actually give them any real benefits over 1.5. Using it for Applets, as the article suggests, would be downright retarded.
To Richard Neil: No, it would not work. The Posix implementation of Java AWT/Swing is X11 based. The main reason for Apple doing their own JVM is that their AWT/Swing implantation uses Aqua directly.
To Alan Donaly: For a java programmer, you seem to have profound difficulties finding the dot and comma keys on your keyboard! :P
Oh, and like 99.999% (or more?) people out there, no BSOD to be seen on my Mac Pro or MacBook Pro upon upgrade to Leopard...
I'm sure the problem seems bigger to these developers, as they will all presumably have had the beta versions to test & develop on, and maybe java worked fine on the alpha/beta pre-release versions. I didn't hear of any java incompatibility problems in the latter versions, so I'm assuming it's a problem with the release version only.
Unless it doesn't, in which case we'll delete your support forum threads to try and make it look better, whilst preventing other users with the same problem from being able to diagnose it as effectively.
@Peter - Do I detect a streak of MacFan? Vista had flaws from day one and El Reg reported them in exactly the same way.
Yet another Apple fanboy who will quite happily excuse any cock-ups by Apple. This isn't a compatibility issue, this is a huge glaring in your face balls-up. BSOD with a common app installed and no Java, especially as Apple are the ones who want control of the Java machine on their OS. There is no way Apple should have released Leopard in this state. Obviously the testers can't be bothered doing a proper job.
Everyone jumped on Vista's back because of various reasons. Most of the gripes I've read about weren't it's fault* (such as application writers not following standards that MS have been warning/telling them to us and hardware manufacturers not providing drivers). It seems common place to have a cheap shot at OS's as they are released.
You are spot on, all new OS's in the mainstream will have issues. That's life. As they get more popular the likelihood of complications increases (due to the increased amount of third party apps and hardware etc).
I think people should wait to reserve judgement.
* obviously some where.
As i'm sure most people will be saying here, never upgrade to the latest OS straight away, lets the niggles surface, then let the company fix 'em.
I'm going to wait a while till I upgrade and will be keeping an eye on the forums.
So yes, we need a new icon for this kind of news.
"revolt", "yet more flack", "vitriol", "normally docile crowd"
Errr yeah, whatever... finished with the hyperbole yet? Judging from the various Mac forums this weekend it looks like most of us managed the upgrade without any major issues. Try putting a bit of perspective on the situation and calm down, anyone would think you were one of those Apple Fanbois...
the problem here seems to be the lack of communication from Apple about it. If they were to just say "yeah, we had a problem and couldn't go live with it, it'll be available in software update as soon as we fix it" that'll be fine.
But they're not. And pulling forum threads is crappy.
Luckily here we're still building to Java 5, so we're OK to go with the upgrade. :-D
Have to agree.... no developer worth his salt would install an OS on any machine on it's release date, you'd wait a few weeks at least (or few years in the case of Vista)
The other issue with the BSOD highlights something else, people rant and rave about Apple liking to keep things 'in house' yet the programs causing issues are both 3rd party apps....
I'm looking forward to putting Leopard on later :)
This post has been deleted by its author
There have been a veritable flurry of posts on the mailing list this weekend. A lot of this ended up being a rather fruitless discussion on whether Java 6 is actually useful, but it did seem that most developers agree that Apple's communication strategy makes no sense whatsoever and simply fuels feelings of neglect and disrespect. Apple could end this whole ordeal with a simple one-line statement.
This article
http://buzz.vox.com/library/post/interpreting-apple.html
provides some hope in the form that this mess is likely to be best explained by corporate inefficiency rather than pig-headed arrogance.
Here's to hoping.
Apple makes machines for home users primarily, they're also good for design and media. While some developers like these machines, to say they're unusable just because they don't have the latest Java is stupid.
Anyone with half a brain who is doing commercial production work would do a test installation first anyway.
Quality Java apps are few and far between, they run slow and can't take advantage of native features (typically). Java is used for stuff like Apache Tomcat, but even then you're unlikely to use the latest greatest version of Java since you should probably hold back a version and ensure all the bugs and security holes are patched.
Well its not divx, I installed fine with it preinstalled in 10.4.
Mind you I am not impressed with the UI all those dark colours make for a very depressing OS, I think market share is going to go down just down to the increased suicide rate of the fanbase. Message call to Apple "metal and black" is so 90's you in danger of going retro.
Since Apple is repeatedly touted by fanboys, and in their own adverts, as the best way to fix all your PC problems, any failing of their OS, even a new version, especially failings which have been highlighted many, many times as reasons for using something other than Windows (eg problems on upgrade) are important to remind people that these problems exist across all OS' and not just Windows. If the same thing happened to Vista every Mac fanboy who reads The Reg would be up in arms telling users to buy a Mac instead.
Considering the idea that Macs "just work" whereas PCs constantly have problems or need driver downloads, or need patching constantly, I think this is perfectly newsworthy. It makes perfect sense that Java should run on Leo, and Gosling, while not always the most restrained individual, expressing disatisfaction says it all.
If it was a true "new OS" you'd be right.
However, one might reasonably expect an incemental update on an existing OS to not break development tools so badly ... or to have such issues with installation. (I won't vouch for the presence of 3rd party tools given how badly those are coded sometimes - but in most of THOSE cases the finger can be pointed back at the OS developers for not leaving enough application/driver space/documentation as well)
I almost daresay, Apple has taken a page out of the book from the Robbers from Redmond when it comes to shifting blame ....
24 hours.
So that would be on Sunday then. Hmm... not getting a response on a weekend to an email sent from a journalist.
And how long do you think the Java problem will exist? Because once it's on the DVD there's no way of fixing it, eh? Fixed in stone.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
"This is a show stopper for me, and I will have to revert to 10.4, since my job as a software engineer for Sun requires Java 6"
what professional developer worth their salt would upgrade their key development environment without first testing it on a backup/test machine? and who upgrades a work environment on the first weekend of a new OS being available anyway?
anyone with half a brain will wait for all the bugs to be ironed out by consumers and possibly for the first patch to come out and then try it out on a test environment before going ahead and upgrading their production machine.
Having done the 10.2 -> 10.3 and 10.3 -> 10.4 transitions already and watched various apps suddenly no longer work, I'm sitting this one out until a few update patches are issued. The trouble with Mac users is we're too keen to jump into the new stuff but then start bitching when it doesn't immediately work perfectly. If you step out of Job's Reality Distortion Field and realise that you actually don't need the latest OS until software you use starts making use of or requiring it, you tend to find your Mac experience goes a lot smoother.
Steve promised Leopard in October and delivered - ready or not! Unfortunately, the GM build was released to developers AFTER it was released to the public. There will be incompatibilities.
Leopard installed just fine on my Mac Mini which is pretty clean as I only use it for compatibility testing and running Windows. I was able to do a clean install on a G5 Dual 2Ghz but I can't get it to install over 10.4.10 even though I have none of the said haxies.
On the whole, when installed, it runs as it says on the box and I haven't found any major problems with any software I use. I haven't had the BSOD on any of my four Macs - although the G5 upgrade situation gives me the grey screen of not booting - which needs to be sorted.
I avoid Java like the plague.
Pete, you made what i would consider a fairly neutral comment there, for certain it wasnt attacking anyone specifically. Maybe the flamers are just bored and this is some pathetic form of entertainment for them.
Im shocked at these people who have suddenly attacked you and declared you a "Fan boy" what a bunch of hostile people they are.
I always found the Reg a good read but its a bit offputting knowing i'm reading the news alongside some clearly childish fellow readers.
"Bwah bwah bwah, My Sinclair spectrum is better than your Commodore 64, etc"
Oh how things have still not changed....
(Right, on with my tin hat)
To answer your question, does the average PC user know what a compiler is?
Mac users are in no way less IT savvy than PC users. Just because they like to spend our time using computers and being creative instead of building computer and overclocking does not mean they don't know anything about them.
I installed Leopard last night and I've had no problems with it at all, I was playing back a music composition in Logic Studio without a glitch (even though Spotlight was indexing my hard disk). Timing and audio stability Windows users can only dream of.
Vista can't even play an mp3 without throttling the network traffic:
http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/archive/2007/08/27/1833290.aspx
I think you're looking at it too simplistically.
Microsoft weren't stopped because they were releasing a Java - they were stopped because what they were releasing was called 'Java' and didn't follow the spec.
If Apple's version of Java is "standards compliant", or whatever the equivalent marketing speak is for Java, then Sun will have no problem with it.
Sun jumped on Microsoft because code written for their JVM would not run on anyone else's - or indeed on any other OS - which is against what Sun want(ed?) out of Java.
Erm, except it isn't, is it. Not if it can't keep up with the current standard. I don't know what it's like for apple fanbois, but my windows desktops download the new version of JRE as soon as it's available. This is a feature of Java, not the OS.
So you're saying that an OS where Java doesn't update itself, and in the case of 1.6, can't update itself, is the best platform to develop on ?
Think yourself lucky you don't work for me, or you'd be polishing up your CV.
@Apple apologists
Get used to it. You all jumped all over Vista for every tiny little flaw when it came out, which IMO is fair enough, but you have to accept that the same will happen for the latest shiny turd that apple poops out as well. It *is* news. It's new information about a new IT product. How is that *not* news ? Just because apple won't tell you about it doesn't make it un-newsworthy, quite the opposite in fact.
@Early adopters
Seriously, WTF is your problem ? Leopard has been available for what ? 48 hours or something ? And you're surprised there are problems ? You installed it on a production system ? Jesus, and I thought the linux fanbois were dense.
Um, except Microsoft does have their own Java implementation, it's just that nobody in their right mind uses it.
This is a pretty big deal, it's as bad as if Vista came out and the latest version of .NET just didn't work -- sure, Microsoft wouldn't let that happen, but the net effect is the same. But I guess these problems will always be around as long as Apple insists on deploying their own JVM, and I get the feeling that they Apple doesn't entirely want Java to be successful on their platform.
And to the jokers saying "serves 'em right for not waiting for service pack 5!", full of yourselves much? God forbid anyone wants to be an early adopter, especially when they're spending their own time on it and not forcing anyone else to install anything. I know a developer showing initiative is the mortal enemy of IT staff throughout the galaxy and should be punished severely, but you can't win every battle in these dark times.
And especially for an OS that supposedly never has any problems and "just works", and has a release hailed as the second coming of Christ by the community at large. This is pretty blatant and you'd think the Java community would've been warned about this a few weeks out before release.
Oh well, it's not like there's a ton of places running on anything newer than Java 1.4.2 (or 1.3.1 in some places). Try to upgrade by one minor version number or God forbid, use a different JRE vendor, and bam, half your ramshackle corporate intranet "applications" won't start up anymore. Write once run anywhere!
As ever the Apple fanbhouys are arrogant and aggressive.
I am amazed that a "Third party" application caused all the trouble. I didn't know any 3rd parties bothered.....:-)
Sorry guys but it just don't work, so live with it. I'm sure that Apple will get around to a fix, after pretending for as long as possible ther's no problem to fix.
Nice to see lots of people assuming that I'm a Mac fan boy just because I said that problems happen with any new OS - which was the source of my comment about it not being news, not about Apple deleting posts from its support site (which clearly is). For the record, I am actually Microsoft partner who uses XP, Vista - and also Mac OS and even Linux - because I do a lot of testing on Web sites. So I'm not a 'fan boy' I'm just sensible. I would not apply a one-day old OS to any machine that my livelihood depended on; if I did, and something went wrong, I wouldn't be so daft as to start screaming about it - I'd just quietly roll back to my backup. Oh, no backup? Oh dear, that is careless!!
Mac OS is a good OS, and I'm not a Mac fan boy. I just have in-depth experience of more than one OS; one wonders if those people shouting 'fan boy' can say the same. Anyone who thinks that any new OS doesn't come with some 'issues' is in denial about the reality of software development - however much testing you do, issues come out in the wild.
Clearly, if Apple is deleting support posts, that's really unhelpful to all of those with this problem - separate issue from what I said though.
Hope that helps. Now leave me alone, I'm a sensitive soul!
The fact that Java 1.6 is not ready for leopard is not the problem. It will, given that it was already available for tiger. Surely, Apple want it to take advantage of the leopard features, and delaying the release of Leopard just for this would be non-sense. If you are a Mac developer "sensu-stricto" (i.e. a Cocoa Developer), possibly you couldn't care less about Java.
However, the real problem is that Java on Macs (even in the "classic" era) has always been in late. I am a Java developer (and also a Mac fanboy) and this issue always prevented me to adopt MacOSX as main developing system. Even if I don't need the latest JDK for the development, the fact that I can use it and try it only months after it has been available on the other platforms makes me a bit uncomfortable. And, finally, how long did it take to have Java3D available on Mac?
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