Opera hits Microsoft with EC complaint

@Anigel

I can uninstall Firefox - every part of it, as far as I am aware - from my PC. Can the same be said of IE?

@Anigel

From the Opera web-site: "[Opera] requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop."

So what they'd actually like is for MS to unbundle IE *and* provide a selection of pre-installed web-browsers. So you could imagine, in a wholly unrealistic alternate reality, the pre-installed Vista (say) coming with a number of installation packages for all the most popular browsers and no default browser.

Unfortunately since the IE code is actually intertwined into the kernel for every Windows OS since Win98 it's unlikely that MS have the ability to remove it now without, yet another, re-write.

Bundling another browser is not the option either

Allow some API to be produced that, as long as a browser supplies the calls, will replace IE's rendering engine, allow system builders to produce windows bundled with any browser technology and remove IE as a requirement for receiving updates.

For the latter case, have a separate application to do the downloading. There's no need for it to be an internet application embedded in the browser (except so far as to make IE with it's ActiveX technology a REQUIRED part of the OS). When I use Linux, clicking on an rpm calls up the packaging manager and the browser is merely used to download the package to pass on to the application.

@Anigel

Actually, I think Opera would be quite happy if firefox got bundled. What they are really after is raising Joe User's awareness to the fact that there are alternatives to IE (the fact that the alternatives are better is a bonus!). Once Joe sees that there are options, he might go looking for further options and stumble across Opera. Or Open Office. Or Linux.

Bundle away!

I don't think the problem is necessarily bundling, more to do with the fact that you can't unbundle it, nor can you uninstall IE in its entirety.

There's also the fact that MS have made IE the only choice if you ever want to use Windows Update.

Personally I never use IE for any other purpose than testing my web apps (as the majority of users will be viewing with IE) and for Windows Update.

I don't think bundling an installation package for all the major browsers would work. When given the option of installing IE, Opera or Firefox, Joe User will just install the one they currently use as it's safe and familiar.

MS can continue shipping IE with Windows, I still won't use it.

Who bloody cares?

So you have IE with Windows, so what? Nobody, not even Microsoft forbids you to install another browser. Which you can then use instead of IE. Nobody is forcing you to use IE here, people. The first thing i do whenever i installed Windows is download and install Firefox. I then try not to use IE for anything anymore, except for those badly-designed websites that can't handle anything but IE. Is Microsoft knocking on my door like a Jehova's Witness and try to get me back to IE? No. Does IE force you to make itself the default browser? No. So what if they bundle *their* software with the product *they* sell? You're not forced to buy that either! I don't really like Microsoft and their products, but come on! Equal opportunity to sell your product is nice and everything, but let Mozilla make their own OS first and then they can bundle their browser with their own software too.

Oh, obviously i'm not a lawyer (no need for this disclaimer i suppose), and so i make comments that are probably dumb in the eyes of others :)

And now i'm off to sue KDE for making Konqueror their default browser. It should be banned!

What? It integrates into the desktop too? Monopoly! Yeah, i know i chose to have KDE and i should have known that they have 'bundled' this software. Yeah, i know i could have installed something else but i feel like whining.

So what?

I don't see a huge problem with shipping Windows with IE. Without it the PC would be useless to 99% of buyers, and finding a web browser without having the web would be difficult. I also really can't see why everyone gets their panties in a wad over the fact you can't uninstall it - just don't use it or hide the shortcuts. IE provides internet access as part of the Windows API and more than just IE use it. I've even written some small apps that use it that would break if it wasn't there.

That being said, the only thing I use IE for is downloading Firefox and testing sites for compatability. It's a disgrace that it renders HTML so appallingly badly - it's holding the web back by years and wasting hundreds of millions of man hours in development times. If it rendered pages properly and did what it was told I really wouldn't mind it. At the moment it's the bane of my existence.

What may be required is some form of standards body to implement a spec that must be adhered to. If your browser doesn't pass, you can't call it a web browser. Maybe the W3C should start making some trademarked kitemarks?

Hear hear!

As a Soft Eng, when writing c++ commercially I am constantly plagued by the many non standards MS choose to inflict on developers. There are standards out there for C, C++ and the STL but M$ consistently ignore them or 'extend' them. The bastards.

In my spare time I have been known to create websites for myself and for friends. I'm sure anyone in my position can understand why I absolutely fucking detest M$ and everything they do.

When writing websites I code it up using W3C standards (HTML, XHTML, CSS) and it works on every browser except for IE6 & IE7.

For personal sites I do a bit of browser detection and if they are using MS I give them a bunch of links to standards compliant browsers and tell them to come back once they have some decent software, however if someone has paid me for a site I have to jump through hoops to support both IE6 & IE7 because of their huge market share.

Of course if you un-bundle your browser from the OS the user won't be able to search for another, so there needs to be a choice of browser provided on the first install.

Let's face it MS should just stop bothering with IE, it's shit and IE7 only improved in useability terms by copying the rest - they just didn't bother fixing the bugs that count - rendering, security, & standards compliancy.

There just aren't enough expletives to adequately describe the bunch of sneaky, money grabbing cunts that are Microsoft.

PS if you haven't tried Opera, you really should - very fast, very useful. Oh and it just works!

10 reasons I'm glad for IE

1- i can use it to go to www.getfirefox.com

2- the IE Tab plugin for Firefox would be useless without it

3- i can pay my bills faster (my bank's website only supports IE)

4- i don't need to install it seperately after installing Windows

5- more competitors arise on the market

6- works with Active Directory policies

7- articles like these and the comments they spawn

8- i liked it better than Netscape Navigator

9- my scripts can depend on it due to its availability

10- most people know what you mean with IE. Can you say the same for FF or O?

okay so the last one was kind of hard for me to think of ... Come on, it's difficult to think of 10 good reasons :P

RE: I'd of

Does Firefox also have a grammar-checking plug-in that would have replaced the fucking abomination that is "I'd of" with the correct and actually-sense-making "I'd have", thus saving Anonymous Coward the immense effort of not being a cretin?

On a more general note, to those who are complaining about Windows Update being tied to Internet Explorer: you should upgrade to Vista, in which Windows Update is a standalone application.

Also, Opera should shut up. If their browser had had better support for standards before it got to version 9, maybe they'd have a larger market share. One of my abiding memories from my time as a web developer is writing browser-detect redirects to send Opera users to special versions of pages which didn't use any DOM-based Javascript.

Opera define new meanings...

"a monopolist make choices for them."

Monopoly:

" a market in which there are many buyers but only one seller"

So WTF is Apple? Sun? Linux? Opera? Firefox?

So you bunch of morons, you want standards, yet can't even use the f****** dictionary.

I can, if I want, install and use any of the above, but I don't it's my choice. Don't force your software on my pc thanks.

Where the No Beardy Geek Icon (or just an LED in a darkened room will do)

@ i'd of

Firstly,

It's I'd HAVE not I'd of

Secondly, the whole arguement is about Microsoft monopoloising the market.

Fine let them produce their own browser etc, but you don't have to bundle it all together thus stopping people from ever learning that there are better options out there. So many people just blindly follow MS because they know no better. I now use Firefox and will never go back to IE because it is far superior, in my opinion. I am constantly telling people of other browsers that are available because they have no idea what so ever of the choice out there.

Maybe MS should bring out a removal tool for IE as Symantec did with their product.

@Mark Rendle (I'd of)

The abomination isn't "I'd of", it's "I'd have". The reason people keep writing "I'd of" is because conservative private schoolboys refuse to let them write what they say: "I'd've" or "I'da'".

Most people never say "I'd have" in their entire lives. However, they try to please the grammar nazis and make a "full word". Their best guess is "of".

The thing with the Nazis was that they believed in a pure master race that never existed.

The thing with grammar nazis is that they believe in some pure master tongue that never existed.

(The Anonymous English teacher.)

Re: janimal

Spot on janimal, the problem Opera are trying to get at is not the fact the IE is bundled it's the fact that IE Breaks just about every recognized standard, I used to be a prof. web designer, since have given it up yet i still design sites in my spare time... take IE6 not supporting transparency in PNG's what the hell is with that?

All M$ really need to do is just sort out IE so it follows standards just like every other bloody browser out there...

I personally use FF when desigining sites, yet i always have to fire up IE 6.0 to check that the site will work in IE Due to the unfortunate majority of people that still use IE!

If it was up to me i'd code everysite with a lookup to check if they were using anything other than IE If they were you can view the site if not, here Http://getfirefox.com install that and you can come back to this site...

But thats not the way because M$ is a monoply they can get away with brining out buggy as fuck browsers that don't follow standards!

I really hope Opera win this case! GG Opera!

Mayby...

...it's all because of Silverlight. I remember a blog post of some Opera guy. He wrote that MS had agreed to support Silverlight in Opera. But when Silverlight was released there were only IE, FF, and Mac Safari listed. Now Opera files a lawsuit, and I’m sure they will add SL support for Opera. Now MS uses SL heavily on its site and I get pretty annoyed with the fact that I have to switch to IE to see yet another Halo add.

I agree, Opera is great for web surfing and FF for development. So I have both installed :)

@kerberos

"..What may be required is some form of standards body to implement a spec that must be adhered to..."

That's a recipe to kill innovation - "here is a box - do all your thinking inside it or we'll get the cattle prod out"

By the way - W3C do have approval marks which you can stick on compliant pages - and a very good compliance tester.

IE (and Media Player) can be completely removed from Windows integration by using add/remove windows components. That won't suit all the Hard Disk scrapers out there of course - FFS - this is 2007 - 50Mb is not a lot of HD space. Of course you can always nLite your install and save a bit of HD - but that is really for all the FDisk every six months crowd.

@ Stu Reeves

Thank you Stu for pointing that out for us. We would be lost without your wisdom, well thought out arguments and insightful comments. You have the gift of being able to give a voice to the vast but mostly silent majority who loves the constancy that our Redmond rulers represent like constant things should be loved. Yours is a noble duty.

If it wasn't for MS bundling

There'd be no FOSS jihad, no kernel mailing list, and no rabid linux fanboys cluttering up the place with their ill informed flamage, because all the decent coders would have jobs at profitable software companies. There'd be no slashdot.

Imagine that world.

There'd just be Stallman, crying in a computer room somewhere, and no one would give a fuck.

So in that respect at least, MS have lot to answer for, bastards.

Re: Bundling vs. standards

You can remove FF from Ubuntu and use Nautilus to browse the web. Or install Opera. Or even Lynx. You don't have to have FF installed to use Ubuntu.

But you can't uninstall IE and by uninstalling I mean that when you've clicked "Remove Program", you don't have to worry about any security vulnerabilities from IE affecting your system.

That lass in the icon, she's smarter than you because at least she shuts up about stuff she knows nothing about.

@Colin Millar

IE and media player ICONS can be removed completely. However, you still need the application to, for example, download patches. Your Windows OS will decide when it wants to run IE, so having the user front-end installed is NOT going to stop it. So your computer can still get hosed by an IE exploit, which is FAR more important than the size on disk (or even, nowadays, in memory).

@Mark

"you still need the application to, for example, download patches"

No you don't - you can use Windows update in FF.

Grind Opera into nothing

I think its about time Microsoft destroyed Opera, its a pile of junk just sitting there to be killed hahahahahha

But we're all IT literate.....

The problem as I see it, is that 99.999% of the installed Windows user base automatically assume that the big blue 'e' _is_ the internet.

My 9 year old understands that she can use IE, Firefox, Opera or even Safari on her moms Mac Book.

When I'm in the local pub chewing the fat many of my friends express their personal experience with the t'internet as the big blue 'e'.

This is because M$ bundle the browser, and do not give Joe User the option. How many years have I had to suffer conversations around phising, pop-ups, malware and all other kinds of s**t because M$ haven't had to compete in the browser market?

Bring it on, the sooner the better.

Seriously, though

Is there a document available that catalogues the W3C standards which aren't supported in IE7?

Ahh the good old days...

For less of a rant.

1. How are the great uneducated to get FF / Opera / IE or A.N.Other if no browser is installed? Are you sugesting we go back to the good old days of picking up Netscape (eeuuggghh) from W.H Smiths or PC World, which will no doubt come with all there crap installed?

2. I hate companies / groups whinning about the bullys. Market share of i.e is falling and has done for a while now. Having i.e actually is GOOD for the browser wars, it stops piss poor stagnant software stting there, again remember Netscape, it failed because it was awful. The reverse is also true, that FF & Opera make i.e better. The same could be said of Linux, like it or not, the too actually need each other. Without MS we'd proberbly still be stuck at text based pc's or paying for overpriced MACs. At the same time Linux has made MS wake up and try to secure the products.

So for Opera to say "please do this, don't do that"...is a cop out, make a good product, let people know about it and then see what happens. i.e8 will come along and it will be better than 7, putting pressure again on FF & IOpera to make a better product again. We all benefit from this.

Netscape died not because of the bundling, but because it was crap. i.e was also crap, but at least it was free crap.

Could be worse, SCO-Unix could of won the O/S wars.

@ Stephen Sharpe

If you code your website to be standards compliant, it won't work properly in IE. Whether or not MS see that as a problem, it is their fault, and it is them who need to change. The more pressure brought on them to do so, the better.