Behind Microsoft's IE-free, Windows-for-Europe ploy

You've got to hand it to Microsoft

This plan of theirs is almost BOFH-ish in its audacity and evilness, with the best part being people still have to install IE in order to download any other browser! Evil Geniuses.

Let's guess the next step: if MS are ordered to provide some sort of pop-up to allow users to choose their browser, what's the betting MS decide to put the browsers on the install disc so that by the time the OS launches the versions on the disc will be out of date? Or if they're forced to provide downloads, MS will host old versions on their servers.

If my sums are right...

(3,500,000 / (1 - 0.00005)) - 3,500,000 = 175 (and some change)

175 copies out of 35 million, says it all really. I don't think anyone can have even mentioned it in marketing anywhere to get figures like that - it's probably just a couple of cheapskate system-builders who sought it out for themselves (and maybe Neelie Kroes) ... god it's dismal, but I'm not surprised.

I can't help wondering if there's not more that Opera, MozCorp et al. could be doing off their own bat to flog their wares to OEMs. If they could get these guys over their fear of the unknown by touting the benefits and showing them their browsers can be integrated into their install images just as easily as IE (even offering some hand-holding if necessary), then this whole fight might be irrelevant. Have they really tried this approach, or are the OEMs afraid of something more than the unknown? (A high-velocity chair to the head, perhaps?)

remember the lie Bill Gates told?

It is very clear that Microsoft is attempting to defraud consumers.

Remember Bill Gates?

He testified under oath in federal court that Microsoft would refuse to distribute IE separately from the OS. The jerkhead also lied when he claimed that he thought illegally commingled code was corrected if a icon might be removable.

There is no question the Microsoft fully intends to continue to force the sale of IE upon all consumers.

Just precisely what is it that Microsoft plans not to ship? An icon? A scrip file?

Clearly Microsoft has not separated out that commingled code, right? You know, the code that the US Court of Appeals found to be illegal?

And you can bet that Microsoft will use whatever means it can (including illegal ones) to force OEMs to put back IE and continue to force consumers to buy it.

You think not?

The truth is that Microsoft planned on forcing the sale of IE technologies even if the consumer could not use it or run it.

The key is that Microsoft would continue to collect cash for the sale of their technology. Screw the consumer. Any consumer that ops out of running IE deserves to pay for technology that they can not use.

That is Microsoft's proposal.

The EU should mandate that Microsoft not only completely remove all IE technologies but also require the OS to be sold for $35 less because of the removal. The EU should further require that if Microsoft ever provides IE to a customer they must pay $35 dollars or not receive the technology.

In other words, preclude Microsoft from selling IE while lying about it.

That is called "fraud". Getting your money by using deceit.

A step too far?

I'm actually on Microsoft's side this time - why shouldn't they be allowed to bundle IE in with Windows? A browser is pretty much essential these days after all!

Is the EU going to stop Apple bundling Safari on the Mac or the iPhone? Or Quicktime?

So it makes it tougher for Opera, big fat hairy deal. Opera should make a product compelling enough to prompt users to switch!

Or perhaps the EU should apply this thinking to cars and force the car manufacturers to offer 3rd party body kits, air filters, even car mats as alternatives to the manufacturers own? After all, K&N's air filter market would be so much larger if every car manufacturer was forced to optionally install K&N products on all new cars!

Hopefully the EU will save us from phorm - I think they're still wrong about IE though.

Taxi for Mr Clarke

"Microsoft must either ship rival browsers with Windows or make them available for download from Automatic Update."

And how would that work, exactly? Is this every browser that's ever been written (plus all the ones that will be written in the future), or just those favoured by Gavin?

Newsflash - 99% of users don't give a stuff which browser they use, they just want their PC to work out of the box. For those that feel the need for a browser other than IE, none of them are much more than three clicks away.

But, I hear you say, evil M$ have buried bits of IE code deep inside Windoze - I want my system to be completely pure, with no taint of that old devil Gates. No problem - get yourself a Linux distro and knock yourself out.

Sheesh

Okay, what's the deal?

Why oh why oh why is a browser so important?

Is it the underlying technology and browser integration that others are after?

And if so, why don't they say so?

Much ado about nothing

I'm really sick of this. It's just a web browser FFS. Who cares if MS holds the majority of a market that is worth £0? Good on MS for their 'F-U' attitude, I'd do the same.

Hopefully Notepad will be next in the EU's (short) sights.

Ok, how

So the new laptop arrives. you turn it on and decide you are going to use firefox, youve been told its the best and all you need to do is download it... how, with what.

First chink in the armor

I know it's a long shot.

Before the astroturfers and Daily Mail readers get here.. A couple of points for reference.. A waste of time, but what the hell..

1) Apple, Linux, Microsoft and many others are all competing in the same market. There is no Linux market and there is no Apple market. There is just a desktop computer market. The one Microsoft has a monopoly position in.

2) Just because alternatives exist, it doesn't stop Microsoft from using unethical and often illegal practices to keep that monopoly influence, and to strong arm other markets. This is for Microsoft's benefit, not yours.

3) The market share aspect is trivial. The real meat of the issue revolves around the bit that the astroturfers will try to disguise as much as possible.

Compatibility.

Why exactly does IE8 only score about 20% on Acid 3 when Firefox and Safari get near or actually reach 100%? Are Microsoft programmers really that incompetent?

Right. Now ignore all I have said, and get going with a nice Euroskeptic MS fanboy rant. Earn your money for a change and come up with something more original than the usual nonsense. At least try to come up with a reasonably good argument. Do Paris proud.

No upgrade path to Win 7 Europe version!

The E version of Win 7 cannot be used to do an in-place upgrade from Vista - users will have to 'upgrade' by doing a clean install!

This will kill sales of Win 7 upgrades in Europe!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10262703-56.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=BeyondBinary

There's no pleasing them

So for years, they've been screaming and throwing their toys out of the cot to get IE unbundled from Windows.

Apparently, I've missed a memo somewhere - Now that it's being done, you're not happy (and neither is Opera) - it's being called a *ploy* to top it off! Never you mind that it's done. IE is unbundled.

Wow, we're not quick to judge, are we? :)

OK, sarcasm aside - a few things are pretty clear here.

1) MS haters will not be happy until Windows is unbundled from Windows

2) The EC will not be happy until they can have MORE money.

3) Try calling something done by Apple or Google a 'ploy' and look at the reaction you get from the g/iTards.

Warning: Rant approaching.

If I buy an operating system from a company I expect it to come with an internet browser and only contain applications from that company (or third party components they have licensed and fully verified).

I do not want third party applications pre-installed, I do not want third party applications (that I don't have installed) appearing in my 'system updates' list. Too many times now when I try to install an application from company x it also wants to install something from company y (google and 'ask' toolbars being frequent targets). How about you just install your product and if I want something from google, mozilla, opera or whoever I'll damn well go and get it myself!

Opera, Mozilla and the EU commission can go jump off a cliff. Representing the consumer? Not me they aren't.

"Those options..."

"Microsoft must either ship rival browsers with Windows or make them available for download from Automatic Update."

Am I the only one that sees this as a rather clear case of protectionism for MS's rivals in the web-browser market? How can a company be forced to peddle software from competing vendors?! Or has common sense completely vanished from all official bodies? I know that MS has played dirty a few times, but this is getting ridiculous. Especially since Firefox is a living proof that, under current conditions, alternative browsers can successfully compete with IE.

And if EC really wants to intervene here, then make OEMs sell the non-IE version exclusively, with the users choosing what browser they want pre-installed as an obligatory step during the purchase. The retail copies can keep coming with IE, if someone's buying a retail copy, then that one is (99%) surely tech savvy enough to install it, in which case he's also tech savvy enough to know about alternative browser and install it.

FTP

A small ftp app pre-loaded with the paths for all major browsers would be a lot simpler.

Updates?

So are microsoft allowing Win7 users to update their PC's through Firefox? How will they connect to the Internet out of the box?

I see microsoft still do not get it, this is not about saying we do not want IE, its about the fact we want to CHOOSE if we want IE. Many people would settle for XP SP4, or XP R2, with some of the fancy things from Vista/Win7 as part of the SP.

Paris? well does she know what win7 is? Lets educate her!!

For the inevitable flood of Wintards and MS shills...

Before you all post your ignorant bullshit and paid for bollocks - a quick guide for the uninformed:

1. Is MS a de facto monopoly in the computer Operating System space as defined in legal terms rather than some misconception that your average Wintard or MS shill will pull out of their arse? Yes.

2. Has MS been convicted of abusing that monopoly to the detriment of other software developers? An emphatic yes. Many times in many different jurisdictions including the US, EU, Korea, Japan, etc. and for many different reasons.

3. Is one of those abuses in the browser space? An emphatic yes.

4. Wasn't a remedy applied by the US early in the 2000s? In legal terms yes, but in reality no. It was a failure in terms of promoting competition and MS continues to abuse its monopoly to this day.

5. Why is this happening in the EU now? See 4. above. MS is still abusing its monopoly in the browser space to the detriment of the competition and the end-user (if there is a single person who thinks that IE is the best browser out there, they need not only their head examined but a damned good kicking for being such an unmitigated idiot).

6. Why is this thing with the EU happening? Because this is entering the remedy stage where they are to be punished for the abuses they have already been found guilty of.

7. Why is it happening now and why didn't it happen sooner? Because MS do absolutely everything in their power to delay, delay, delay. See goings-on during prior US anti-trust case.

8. Why are people on this forum responding in such a negative way to the EU and Opera in these stories? Three possibilities - they are either complete, fucking morons or they are an MS shill (see prior US anti-trust and look at wikipedia for the definition of shill). It is one of their known dirty tactics in legal cases of this ilk. The other option is that they are idiot Americans who object to the EU having to do their work for them (see 4. above).

9. Why aren't Apple being forced to do the same with Safari? Because none of 1 to 8 applies. They aren't a monopoly in the computer Operating System space. They do not have a monopoly in browser usage (even on their own OS - Safari is only used by about 60% of Mac owners) to abuse. Their browser can be easily deleted without breaking any functionality of the OS. None of their software relies on Safari being installed.

10. Ditto Linux and Firefox.

11. But how will people get onto the internet without a browser? You don't need a browser to go online. An easy-to-use UI to a browser download site using SFTP or any other appropriate protocol would be trivial to create and display to a user as soon as they went online.

12. But who will choose which browsers I get to download if that is the remedy? The EU, and the OEMs, probably on the basis of which ones are most popular after removing IE's inflated share of the market (which would be the only fair way to do it at this time). In other words, the people themselves.

13. But won't this impede MSs ability to "innovate"? MS haven't innovated a god-damned thing for over 20 years. There is nothing to impede.

14. But aren't MS the bestest, evar, cuddliest, nicest, company who saved the World™ with their OS and IE? Are you effing, kidding me?

End of public service announcement

window dressing

I can't see that, once there is a button that will fetch IE - and only IE - the offering is distinguishable from having IE there in the first place. After all most versions of an OS will fetch allsorts of stuff when they first wake up, if only security updates.

The regulators need to insist that whenever there is a choice that consumers get a choice.

Next they need to uncover strongarming on hardware vendors to exclude other OSs from the marketing material.

Crazy

OEMs have had the option to install different browsers since the word go, they have never been tied to IE, but they choose to leave IE as the default browser, Why? Because that’s what the end users are expecting, if they wish to change their mind then go right ahead and install whatever takes your fancy.

To force Microsoft to provide 3rd party applications as part of the install is mind boggling, If MS did this it would been seen as MS condoning these programs and as such supporting them, which they do not, MS has nothing to do with them, can you imagine firefox providing an update to Windows update which royally screws something else on the OS? That is extreme but possible, and worst of all it would be seen as Microsoft’s fault and you can bet on your kids lives that FF and Opera wont allow MS to provide certification like hardware vendors are forced to do if they want access to windows update, because MS would want changes to be made and since they represent the anti-Microsoft users of the world i cant see them taking that pill.

Microsoft is being very cleaver, providing an OS without a browser WILL enoy the consumer and OEMS as they will now have to do this, if IE isnt allowed to be provided by windows update how exactly are people going to install alternate browsers, MS cant be made to support them and by association provide them, how many people happen to have IE, FF, Opera kicking about on a disk? not many i bet and finally the first firefox user that shouts FTP should be shot, most users are normal people meaning they have no idea what you are talking about let alone how to do it.

Nice one Microsoft! and IF the numptys within the EU force this i hope they follow suit with Firefox and Linux, and Safari and OSx both of which are equally unfair ESPECIALLY since IE is losing market share without all this EU crap!.

I also hope they provide the European users with the choice which OS to buy, otherwise ill be buying it digital via the states and that means no tax revenue for Europe!

I'm baffled

Why are these other browser suppliers so keen to bash up MS. Their browsers are FREE, so what's the panic to get them installed?

I hate windows

mainly because I have to work with.

But isn't it a bit unfair that Apple is allowed to have Safari, Quicktime, DVD player, iTunes, iLife & iWork shipped in their OS and on their hardware exclusively?

OK there is a small fee to get the full version of Quicktime (which they call PRO) and iWork ... if that all it takes to avoid legal case for M$ I would say their lawyers are stoopid, and they deserve what is coming at them.

Let's all calm down a bit...

Yes, if bundling IE is found to be a violation, then Microsoft would be liable for any such violations, e.g. from 1996 to present.

The Windows 7 decision is for the future, to mitigate future liability. The OEMs aren't idiots -- if they don't put IE on the box, they'll install Firefox or (if they like spending lots of money on tech support) Opera.

And Microsoft said that they will ship a tool that lets users download any browser without first having a browser installed.

Sounds sufficient to me.

Bah! more FUD

There was a time when to succeed in the PC world you had to be either first or be the best, now the evil empire has reduced this to produce any old crap and bet the first to sue or have the best legal team and then cover any gaps with FUD.

There was a time when I viewed any MicoShit as a welcome and genuine improvement on previous products, possibly with the exception of the code view debugger, the Borland debugger was much nicer to use.

Then they became a shower of greedy bastards, why build a better mousetrap when you can force your mousetrap on everyone by default and make it impossible for people to remove your mousetrap, even people didn’t want it or wanted to use somebody else’s slightly better mousetrap.

After all what is the point of being a monopoly unless you are going to abuse that position, why innovate or fix buggy software when you can simply prevent your competitors from accessing the market.

Why build secure software when it is more efficient financially to build a big homogenous mess what will make it difficult for true innovators to compete with MS and where a bug in JPEG picture rendering software will expose your email address book to hackers.

Windoze firewall anyone, blocks all unauthorised traffic except traffic with the evil empire?

And then when you do release a flawed product (or 18 versions of it) fill the market with FUD and then wash your hands a la Pontius Pilate, saying “oooh, its nothing to do with us, it’s the public (the OEMs in our pocket) that want this!!!”

So I am delighted the EU have seen through this cheap trick, and I for one will continue to block all access to the evil empire in my third party firewall and install non M$ products whenever I can. Yeah, I know I’m still stuck with Microshit office and project ‘cos that’s what I have to use in work, however in these economically challenging time it may be time to push the move to some open source products.

I used to work in one big iron company that insisted on buying/leasing Amdahl hardware, not because it was any better than big blues offerings, just that it was a reminder to big blue that there were alternatives.

I've just shutdown LookOut, and watched in task manager as bugger all memory was released, maybe its time to look at the way all MicroShit products are bundled and part of the OS.

Oh shut up you anti-MS shill

I also live in the Bay area and I see so many "techies" who hates MS with passion because they or their company lost to Microsoft in the past. What a bunch of whining losers. Yeah, that also includes Opera, EC and others. OS is a built-in monopoly business like Ebay. MS won. Get over it, losers. If you want your browser shipped with OS, build your own OS, damn it. Why should MS advertise your browser on their product? If you can't build your own OS, then spend your own money for ad campaign or create a really unique product that users can't afford to ignore. The fact is all browsers are about the same. That's why people just go with IE. These losers (especially the Apple and Linux camp) have created sort of a "it's hip to hate MS" meme and now you see novice techies in US or EU repeating the same BS not realizing that they are just being tools for the Apples, Googles and Operas of the world.

EU - a sour bunch of grapes for EU - worthless article

What more does the EU want - MS has levelled the field.

Next on the same vein will they ask Google to allow IE to be downloaded from their site and present a selection to pick IE, Chrome, Safari etc from Google.

Also ask Opera the problem child of europe to provide a dropdown to pick IE, Chrome, Safari, Opera from their web site. This is the height of ridiculousness.

Is the EU idiotic - a pathetic attempt by a bunch of lazy beaureacrats to dictate what the customer wants. The real people behind these are a bunch of losers such as Google, IBM, Sun who failed miserably in the USA and got kicked out in the courts and now trying to do backhand deals with the EU in Europe. What a sore bunch of losers.

And for the EU they are peeved that US companies dominate the industry and their lazy and worthless companies cant face the competition and trying to prop them up. What a shameful and anti-competitive practice indeed.

Nice Spin. Too bad it's completely wrong

Man, even when MS throws in the towel some people have got to whine.

MS has *surrendered* Utterly. They removed IE *completely*. Opera won. You wanted a level playing field, *well here it is*. MS is FORCING everyone in the EU to choose a browser--you aren't allowed *not* to!

Will this make Neelie and her henchfolk look like the slimy money-gougers they are? Of course it will. And there *will* be much rejoicing in Redmond. Seems like MS finally grew a pair--it's only taken 10 years...

Oh, and that part about Windows N? *THAT WAS THE COMMISSION'S OWN REMEDY! Egg on face all 'round. A dozen Roc eggs. :)

Past time MS told the EU to put up or shut up--and that's what they've done. Here's Windows 7. Here's an IE disk *if you want it*, if not you can go without a browser at all or Mozilla and company can pull an AOL and shower all and sundry with CDs.

Or the OEMS can load every single *free* browser on the planet on every machine they build. (Funny how all this noise and fury is about something that costs *nothing*, isn't it?)

CHOICE. You wanted it, and by God MS is going to make absolutely sure you *make* it.

Where's the rejoicing, hmm? Surely every Firefox fan, Safari zealot and Opera afficianado will be beating down peoples' doors to install the browser they champion? Surely FOSS will hold parades down the streets of every European capitol? MS has lost!

There have been loudmouths who opined that MS should simply abandon the EU altogether. Obviously MS wants your money too badly to do that. But here's a small taste of what it would be like if they did.

Here's the chance for the ABM crowd to show their mettle. They've always boasted their stuff is better, now *prove* it!

Surely OEMs can whip up a simple ballot screen? What about the FOSS folks? Now's your time, here's the clarion call for the downfall of MS!

Go for it.

Instead of whining like spoiled 3 year olds...

Step 2

"Step 2 select your browser"

A bit of a fizzer on the bogeyman scale.

no different...

How is pre installing the browser different to pre installing the installer for the browser; and not providing any way for people to access other web browsers without first installing IE?

Do they expect us to have a second computer that doesn't run windows to download the non M$ browser (as a pc would initially required you to use internet exploiter) .

... because otherwise... there aint much difference to just installing IE by default.

Enough of the anti Microsoft rubbish, the register!

Ploy? So I'm guessing it's okay for Apple and the Linux distro's to have FF & Safari included however the nasty Windows operating system which millions have decided to buy can't.

Do you guys have a car ?, well I hope you don't have stereos inside them because they should come without them!

Not Just A Browser

IE is not just a browser, now is it.

It is part of Microsoft's game, wherein every facet of the IT industry is to be owned and controlled by a company that specialises, not in programming, technology or innovation, but in litigation, marketing, and other forms of mendacious and specious bullshittery. It starts with the browser, moves to proprietary client-side technologies, and ends up with proprietary server-side technologies.

The medium? Idiotards who regurgitate all the non-arguments you can find above.

Now, perhaps you idiotards feel that the industry you work in is best served by one mega-marketing autocracy. That's fine, but please fuck off and find another industry to work in. I actually care about computing.

Paris, because you can all just fuck off.

Why does it matter?

None of them actually charge for the browser? It's free!

On the point of giving users a choice, the ones that choose a browser different to IE would install it anyway. The others would just go with IE surely since they've bought a Microsoft operating system?

And as has been mentioned Apple are just as bad. I've recently moved to OS X and while I do enjoy it I also can't believe they get away with tying in the need for Safari. For those that say you can delete it, unfortunately some of the settings for OS X rely upon what you set in Safari. That makes it even worse than IE surely?

It's just all fanboyism at the end of the day!

From an Opera fan. I even bought it back when you had to pay for it.

Its very strange

I always thought that the original action was about the fact that Microsoft browsers and Media Players were part of the Windows Operating system, and the problem was that there were so many hooks (some undocumented) between them that putting a new browser or media player in was incredibly difficult (or damn near impossible).

Even as a fan of Linux and Firefox, I am finding removing IE entirely a little extreme. I believe that Microsoft should be free to release any software it wishes with its operating system all interfaces required to replace that software with alternative defaults are fully documented, in advance. I believe the EU insisted that IBM document its release interfaces 6 months prior to release in another settlement, and that would seem to be a good option here.

Meh!! Spinning the spin

@Wolf 1 and others

It's funny/strange how I, an IT professional, never heard of XP N before I read this article, did anyone else see a "I'm a PC without explorer" ad anywhere?

Has anyone gone into the likes of PC world and been offered XP N.

NO!!!

This is an evil empire smokescreen, they don't tell people it exists, they will make sure that the non-IE versions for Europe (pop. 732M) are non-standard builds from the 'merkin (pop. 337M) standard build and will therefore cost more to install.

"MS has *surrendered* Utterly." - No they havent, they just want to give the impression that they are inside the tent pissing out, in reality they are still pissing on everyone.

"they removed IE *completely*" Did they? Did they remove all the IE code from all the DDL's so that you can delete IE without buggering up the system? Will all EU-compliant versions of windoze have all the IE related code in its own set of DDL?

"Opera won" Eh!! there more than alternative to internet exploder.

"Or the OEMS can load every single *free* browser on the planet on every machine they build. (Funny how all this noise and fury is about something that costs *nothing*, isn't it?)"

installtard, that's the whole trick, M$ will say we offered it, but the public (the OEMs we made it more expensive for / in our pocket) don't want it.

"CHOICE. You wanted it, and by God MS is going to make absolutely sure you *make* it."

I'm rejoicing......... :-)