back to article IBM job cuts go compulsory

The job-cutting process at IBM UK has changed from voluntary to compulsory. Managers at IBM Global Services in the UK were originally looking for volunteers to cut head count by about 500. But even though they got more than this number of volunteers the process is going to become compulsory for some people. A source told the …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Graduate concern

    I am a gradate currently mid application for a job at IBM. I am in the later stages there is a strong possibility of a job. Should I be very concerned about this news?

    "Managers at IBM Global Services in the UK were originally looking for volunteers to cut head count by about 500" - how long ago did this whole process start? Do you think the HR team would be taking this into consideration when processing applicants?

    Any thoughts would be great, this is rather unnerving!

    Thanks

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      No more so

      No more so than any other job position in the IT industry these days.

      Can't think of any reasonable-sized company that hasn't laid people off in the last year.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      it doesn't say which Global Services unit

      IBM operates as water tight compartments (for a certain definition of water) - I think this may refer to ITD while GBS has been recruiting in the UK.

      IBM Ireland is the reverse - cutting jobs in GBS and recruiting into ITD/GTS

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Big Brother

      Get yourself a qualification (instead)

      Getting a job in IBM remains a highly competitive process; you've done really well to get so far. But whether you are a high or a low-flyer, you will regret it if you don't use the first stage of post-graduation to get a professional qualification. Like other IT companies, IBM will spit you out as soon as it no longer needs you or the particular business it has randomly allocated you to. Then you will find that the bulk of the skills you have acquired are not professional but specific to IBM processes, and of almost zero relevance to working for ANYONE else. And the longer you stay, the more your skills become dominated by IBM processes, and the less useful you become to anyone else.

      It is less the case than it used to be, but most people in the IT industry benefit from two years in IBM. But don't stay longer than that; and make sure those two years aren't the first of your post-graduation career. Get a qualification first.

    4. xantastic
      Thumb Down

      IBM doesn't like you ...

      I was laid off after only 13 months and while I was fully staffed for the entire evaluation period - but I was working on a project in a different "sector" and my sector had to cut folks.

      I don't recommend IBM to any of my friends graduating uni ... it's too much of a backwards bureaucracy and too impersonal/illogical in their decisions. Hope they enjoy becoming TCS.

      good luck with your prospects!

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      My advice

      to anyone considering a job with Big Rue (as in you'll rue the day you accepted their offer) - run very fast the other way.... there are plenty of better companies to work for than them.

      If you decide to ignore this advice, remember that 2 years is about how long it will take for your career and salary to stagnate.

      As for redundancy, don't stress too much about that... it's usually the most expensive that get shafted first (because the redundancies are a cost cutting measure after all).... it's not until you earn the big bucks (after like 20 years of service, or if you joined as a professional hire when the economy was booming) that you become a liability to their bottom line.

      Anon for obvious reasons.

    6. Ian Michael Gumby

      It depends...

      You're in the interview process for a job at IBM.

      It depends on what position you're hiring to fill.

      If the rec is real and open, you shouldn't worry because you may or may not get the job.

      If the rec is a consulting position, you shouldn't worry because the position may or may not exist, depending on whether or not IBM gets the contract.

      If the rec is for a band 6 or 7, you shouldn't worry because most of the senior positions are at risk.

      If your job might be filled by someone in India, Brazil, Viet Nam, China, or any other country where labor is cheap and quality of work isn't a concern, then, I'd be concerned.

      Bottom line, with IBM, unless you actually have an offer letter in your hand, don't count on there being a job open for you to fill.

      Good luck with your other interviews.

      -G

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Go

      No Need for Concern

      IBM is a great company, it's what you make of it. No company is perfect. Statistically your chances of being laid off are very low. Don't believe what you read - it is true that some people don't get pay raises, those are the lowest performers. My salary has not stagnated since I joined.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Grenade

        @AC No need for concern

        I may be wrong here but let me take punt. Have you been at the company less than 5 years? You see, if you're a grad who they want to keep you'll be offered good pay rises, stock options, restricted stock units. I to have always had a pay rise, but lets say that after five years they've tended towards inflation levels.

        You see HR in the UK had/has a problem: turnover was/is too high for new grads, but too low for people with longer service. Now, you may be saying, "Wooohoo I'll be at the front when it comes to pay raises etc, keeerrrrrching." Well consider this: I would desperately like to work somewhere else, however, I have a mortgage and a family to support. Because of all the pay rises I received I cannot take a job anywhere else as I cannot affoard it -- essentially I'm paid too much. Sounds like a stupid question but, is that a position you want to be in?

        So, the advice that people have given about staying a couple of years and then moving on is right. Do not fall into the IBM trap that I did. (Oh and we could talk about the possibly illegal enforced PBC rating percentages, but that's for another day).

        One final thought......do you want to work for a company where the Pensions' Trustees are taking them to court, and a large number of recent "retirees" are launching a series of industrial tribunals for constructive dismissal/age discrimination?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Big Brother

        You've been drinking too much of the kool-aid

        "Some people don't get pay rises, those are the lowest performers"? Rubbish, and probably written by an IBM manager or exec. That is a flat-out lie. I've been a top performer and haven't had a pay rise for years. And that is whilst earning significantly below IBM's "market rate" for my band (and the IBM market rate is usually around 75% of the real market rate).

        Don't be fooled by people posting nonsense such as this, apart from the fact that chances of being laid of are (still) statisitically slim, the rest is absolute carp.

    8. _jack_

      re: IBM

      I was on the IBM graduate program and would recommend it. I think the issues people are describing here are characteristics of all large organisations. IBM has a wealth of internal training material and courses at your fingertips and a rotation system for the grads so you get lots of varied experience.

      I moved on to a start up after a year where I work significantly longer hours and the internal training and work-life balance is non-existent, as the large-company-culture was not for me, however people in my intake are still there and love it - it is up to you whether the culture is a match for opwn interests.

    9. Dan 10
      Go

      No problem yet...

      IBM periodically goes through this process, and it's often about getting rid of either 'dead wood' or those that simply earn too much for their role. (See the bit about getting more than 500 voluntary candidates, but still going to compulsory - they didn't the 'right' 500 volunteers).

      If your hiring manager has headcount, then that's probably fine.

      Also, not to take anything away from my fellow commenters, but be wary of seasoned pro's - cynicism is rife!

  2. Roger Jenkins
    Unhappy

    Sad times

    I remember when I worked for IBM UK in the 60's it was a proud boast of the company that they had never made any employee redundant anywhere. How the mighty have fallen.

    1. AndrueC Silver badge

      Huh

      Maybe if they'd been less reticent about trimming staff and more concerned with efficiency they would be doing better now.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      and in.....

      66 you beat the Germans...

      used to crank start the car.......

      and a loaf of bread fed evreyone on the street

      Jaysus, get a life.... the fact that IBM has lasted so long says it is doing something right.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Sad Times

      Roger

      Yes it is sad that the IBM of the 60s is no longer here - and why is it no longer here? Because it was a myth, a myth that nearly killed IBM in the 1990s.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Response

    Thanks for the comments and advice people. Although much of it is disheartening its good stuff to know and will help IF I get the job. Anybody got more positive ideas/other arguments (not that I don't value much of the above, its just that I like to hear both sides of things)?

    Thanks

    Original poster.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      IBM

      A job of IBM is what you make of it. Expectations are very much that you will use your own iniative to improve yourself, but there are plenty of support mechanisms in place to help you do that with the right management. Poor management is just an obstacle you can always work around. If you do get a chance at IBM, the best site to work at is probably Hursley as there's lots of opportunity there to move around, try your hand at different things.Of course if you're willing to travel you can probably work all over the world with IBM quite easily.

      As mentioned, there's lots of process at IBM that can be very disheartening, but at the same time, there's vast amounts of opportunity if you're willing to push yourself forward and grab it. Only those that do so are rewarded at IBM now, so if you're a shy retiring type who just gets on with the job, don't expect IBM to reward you for it. It really all depends what you want out of a job and how self motivated you are as to whether IBM is right for you

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Further response.

    By the way, I am applying for IT consultancy. Also I do not have technical degree but have (I hope) sufficient technical experience. My intention is to stick more to the business side of things and as such think it's better for me to get stuck in straight away with a company like IBM rather than take a year or so out for further qualifications.

    Original Poster

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Grenade

      IT Consultancy?

      If you mean GBS then the lack of technical skills should be to your advantage - possessing them automatically limits your options in the modern IBM

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    @Graduate concern

    I have seen experienced software engineers being laid off by a large, successful software company. It scared the hell out of them, despite the economy going very well at that time.

    This was because they hadn't changed their employer for quite some time.

    Out of 30 engineers, all but two had a job two months after being laid off. (Stuttgart, Germany area).

    So I suggest you take any suitable and interesting job you can find and then move on after two years to a different company. Otherwise you might think that you totally depend on IBM (or HP or BP or BT, whatever), when IN REALITY there are thousands of different opportunities out there.

    I personally know a good technician who worked for IBM's hardware business for about 30 years and was then made redudant. He is now doing some strange service jobs while limping into retirement. He made exactly this mistake - believing into the IBM BS, being loyal. And then being dumped by IBM Corp.

    Loyalty is only for the retarded. Clever people always look out for new options and regularly exercise them.

    Here in Germany we have an excellent freelancer's portal, named Gulp (www.gulp.de). Very easy to get a good and well-paid project....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Loyalty is a Two Way Street

      Nobody complains when employees leave a job with 2 weeks notice. It seems to be OK to leave and go and work for a competitor, but not OK for any other company to keep the best employees. I think that layoffs are the punishment for our litigious society that makes it hard to fire poor performers. So what happens today is that poor performers get paid golden handshakes for leaving. Yes there are occasionally solid performers that get laid off but they are in the minority.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    HP not better

    First I have to say got my education organized/paid for from HP, which I am grateful for.

    They also had very, very loyal employees who worked hard and were proud of their employer. Until the mid-1990s they promised lifetime employment to all employees. This failed when the days of constant growth came to an end and the cheap and powerful PCs ate into the HP-UX and MPE business.

    Now all of HP hardware manufacturing is either closed, transferred to manufacturing services companies or moved to Eastern Europe. Lots of people have been laid off.

    So much to "loyalty".

    Never ever start to believe in the BS your employer tells you. Whatever it is.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Up

      Believe me HP is worse than IBM

      Most big corporations, like IBM and HP, no longer give sh!t about loyalty any more. From my HP perspective this company just sucked me in, got me in a position of reasonable pay and benefits, by then I had got responsibilities - like a wife, kids, mortgage... - and then when I could not just walk away, start screwing me relentlessly. They have gradually eroded my pension, reduced my benefits, and stopped giving me (and most others) pay rises for the past 9 years.

      I have a friend who joined IBM at about the same time I joined HP, he does a similar job to me and is in a similiar position *except* his compensation package is about 16% more than mine. Obviously IBM hasn't honed its employee screwing techniques as much as HP!

      My advice to anyone thinking of joining a large corporation like IBM, HP... is to grab the chance, it will be good experience. BUT, do not believe all the bullsh!t you will be fed about how the company loves you and what a fantastic career you will have with them. Just stay for two or three years, suck everything out of the bastards that makes you more employable and then run, without looking back.

      1. Man Mountain

        Believe me IBM is worse than HP ...

        See, my experience is the exact opposite. Over a decade with IBM after graduating. Three different roles - successful in them all. The early days the compensation was good and progressed nicely and then it grinds to a halt with very little that can be done about it. Once IBM get you to the point where you are close to being a 'lifer' then the incentives to stay disappear. They will only give you just enough to keep you. Many people just moan and grumble but are scared of leaving and before they know it, they are trapped. I'd had one pay rise in 4 years then when I get my job offer from HP, nearly 40k payrise offered overnight but the damage had been done. So far am loving the more energised feel at HP and the considerably flatter management structure. Just wish I had left sooner!

        But, I'm not niaive enough to think that there will be people such as yourself who have found the opposite. The lesson to be learnt is that loyalty in both directions between employee and employer is not what it was. Accept it, embrace it, take responsibility for your own career and path and don't sit on your hands complaining that things aren't what they used to be!

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Reality check

    I worked for many software companies, large and small, before joining IBM.

    I've never seen these wonderful magical companies that 'care' about their staff in the way described in any thread about IBM or MS.

    IBM is just like every other company on the planet: They are out to make a profit. Any one who claims that other companies care more about employees than profits is living in a dream world.

    Education was cut back to zero for a while now, like many companies. But it is coming back now. I've received pay rises and bonuses each year, even during the recent recession. I put this down to making an impact and being lucky enough to be in the section of the company that is making money.

    If you are unlucky enough to be in a section that isn't making money, then yes you should worry. But with an estimated cost of £60K for training a grad, the last resort is to get rid of the new hires. Unless of course they are under-performing.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    survivor IT

    "I am a gradate currently mid application for a job at IBM. I am in the later stages there is a strong possibility of a job. Should I be very concerned about this news?"

    As long as you think of your employer as a disposable resource you're temporarily using to gain job experience/ insight into the Kafkaesque nightmare that is big IT, you'll be OK.

    Don't make the common mistake of going above and beyond, showing loyalty, or believing anything that comes out of their mouth and you'll be fine.

    HP is equally fubared/evil, if not worse. Think of it as a game show were you're guaranteed at least some money and experience, plus you'll get the eye-opening experience of seeing real dysfunction up close.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Further response

    You should make up your mind as to where your key skills are. Being a technical person or more a kind of "business" or "consulting" person. IBM should not play any significant part in this. YOU have to decide how your career path should look like.

    Technical people often have a quite limited and strange perception of the world, so beware of that.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Original poster

    Thanks for the further input guys and some more positive comments.

    @Jlocke, I am primarily a business person with technical skills that have been picked up along the way. I would of course learn many technical skills with IBM but my overall aim, at the moment, would be to keep business as my key focus. I wouldn't call myself one of the "Technical people" you describe and I agree with your statement (naturally without huge amounts of knowledge of the technical world). Could you expand upon your advice there to give me some more food for thought with regard to directing my future in the IT/Tech world?

    Thanks

    Original poster

  11. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    IT the land of opportun.... wait a minute

    I am a grad working in another large IT vendor on there grad scheme. I was fed the usual spiel about being given the opportunity to succeed and become an instrumental cog in the machine that is the organisation... ok not in them words but close enough. I had the luxury of having 2 yrs experience after my undergrad in various divisions of IT before being made redundant and going on to postgrad then joining this grad scheme. After the meeting current grads the shere cynicsm was rife and I am now more aware of certain faults.

    All the places I have worked in have turned out the same way that training and options are seen as a threat to the organisation. I have friends who have been given offers at other large IT organisations only to have them retracted (thats not to say it will happen to you but bare in mind, as grads are a cheaper resource).

    The best career advice I recieved is that only you can decide what you want out of a career and how it will fit in with your life. Never burn bridges and keep options open.

    Attempt to contact current grads and draw on there own experience.

    Good Luck

  12. acc
    IT Angle

    IT the land of opportun.... wait a minute!

    am a grad working in another large IT vendor on there grad scheme. I was fed the usual spiel about being given the opportunity to succeed and become an instrumental cog in the machine that is the organisation... ok not in them words but close enough. I had the luxury of having 2 yrs experience after my undergrad in various divisions of IT before being made redundant and going on to postgrad then joining this grad scheme. After the meeting current grads the shere cynicsm was rife and I am now more aware of certain faults.

    All the places I have worked in have turned out the same way that training and options are seen as a threat to the organisation. I have friends who have been given offers at other large IT organisations only to have them retracted (thats not to say it will happen to you but bare in mind, as grads are a cheaper resource).

    The best career advice I recieved is that only you can decide what you want out of a career and how it will fit in with your life. Never burn bridges and keep options open.

    Attempt to contact current grads and draw on there own experience.

    Good Luck

  13. cashback
    Unhappy

    Don't bother....

    I'm an IBM employee and could not recommend it to anyone I liked :)

    Run away now and find a company that values their employees!

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Reply

    @cashback - what's your role at IBM?

    Original poster

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    @OP: IT Industry Opportunities

    I am a software engineer, so you should take my view with the proverbial pinch of salt:

    IT is only to a small degree software and systems engineering. A lot of IT is devoted to sales, marketing, technology consulting, business consulting, project management, general management, finance and customer support.

    I guess that most IBM or HP employees are actually focusing on the latter activities. When I studied CS at HP and BA Stuttgart, the company emphasized presentation, communication and project management trainings. Technology was taught at the uni and in only a few courses.

    Technology is changing at a very fast pace and more important than that is the ability to communicate and quickly learn something new. Of course, you should know the basics, but the specific technologies often change quickly. During my education, HP sold the MPE operating system, the Allbase DB and used Windows 3.1 with NetWare. All of that is gone now.

    Java and the internet was in a primitive state. Google did not yet exist !

    Capturing user requirements, communicating complex issues, project management, presentation skills. These are key qualifications of most IT professionals these days.

    My guess is that HP and IBM will shrink or disappear dramatically with the emergence of cheap-pc-cluster technologies and the "cloud" during the next ten years. But IT does indeed have a great future, as it is a key technology for virtually all sectors of the economy. Just don't expect it to look like today in ten years time.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    Have a plan B

    My advice to anyone entering the IT industry today is to keep a plan B on hand, i.e. another totally different career to jump into should it go pear-shaped. IT is a shrinking industry in the West, shrinking in terms of opportunity and what you can earn.

    Good luck.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    @Have a plan B

    I disagree. IT is getting more, not less important. The British economy might be in crisis, so consequentially IT is going down, too.

    But that should be over when the real recovery comes.

    Here in Germany we feel not much. Easy to get well-paid projects, actually.

    Besides, what do you suggest as an alternative ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      IT Angle

      Have a plan B

      I never said IT is getting less important, rather that employment opportunity is diminishing in the West. Technical jobs are being offshored in thousands, when the recovery happens the majority of the new work will go to 'low cost centres' like China or India. Still in the UK the recovery is not likely to happen with any gusto until a significant portion of our debt is paid off.

      What do I suggest as an alternative, well I didnt say I had the answer to that did I ?

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    ...IBMer says...

    @jlocke has one of the most insightful posts above.

    Senior management of the modern IBM & probably its counterparts would even agree with 90% of what he says, which is why those co's are not about to go away!

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Go

    Graduates

    I am a current IBM employee and can state as fact that the IBM Graduate scheme is exempt from the current round of redundancies. I cannot give my name but I can say I am very close to the redundancy project.

    I have worked for IBM for 13 years (unlucky for some); moral is low at the moment but not to be unexpected given the current situation. I joined IBM from a non technical background and have on balance enjoyed my time at IBM, I still pinch myslef in the mornings not believing my luck. OK, so IBM is not the greatest employer in the world, they are not the worst either. You could do a lot worse than work for IBM.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Original poster

    Thanks for further input.

    @"...IBMer says... #" poster - please can you expand on that, I find your statement a little confusing. You think IBM and the like will suffer and shrink in coming years, with senior employees fleeing, or that because they are aware of the threat senior employees will work to keep their companies afloat and heading in the right direction (whatever that may be in coming years) and thus will survive?

    @poster immediately above - "the current round of redundancies" - you're obviously covering your anonymous back but do you think that further rounds of redundancies are due in the near future and if so that the graduates will then be affected?

    I am also mid application to Accenture (although much less far along). I do not (maybe "did not" now?!) find the company or the nature of the role as appealing as IBM but do you think they'd be a better option? That is ignoring the salary difference; I am interested in terms of employee satisfaction/job security.

    Thanks,

    Original poster.

    (P.S. are the last two posts I discuss in the post written by the same person?)

    1. Flyer

      This Round

      By this round of redundancies I was merely referring to what is happening now, I have no knowledge of any plans for future redundancies.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Accenture

    This company was broken when they called themselves "Andersen Consulting". They expect TOTAL commitment and have an "up or out" policy: You either move up the hierarchy regularly or you leave the company. Every couple of months a new project in a totally different industry etc...

    I suggest all job-seekers to look for less prominent names in IT and humane working conditions. Software companies have in my opinion an excellent future ahead. Just use google for something like "list of european software companies" or something like that. Be prepared to move to Spain, Germany, France, Sweden, Holland or Norway.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Accenture

    @Jlocke - yes, I am aware of their history. So you'd say in their current state they're worse to work for/more risky than IBM? - Others' input wanted here too please!

    Thanks,

    Original poster.

This topic is closed for new posts.

Other stories you might like