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back to article RIM is really in trouble when even Windows Phone 8 looks great

RIM has seen its once dominant market position in corporate mobile plummet from a great height in the last couple of years. The Canadian giant has suffered a huge fall in stock price and, more importantly, penetration - currently around eight per cent market share - with continual declines, quarter upon quarter. So there is a …

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Although I am not overly keen on the devices, life in the IT management department was much easier when we had blackberries, Goddam you.... progression :)

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Anonymous Coward

Lazy.

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Meh

The Blackberry

Is the first choice phone of the Chav, as jogging pants and Burberry hats are their first choice in fashion wear. Will Win8 phones take over this important crown.

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Mushroom

They've a chance of being the third mobile platform player if they run Android apps well. Otherwise they've < 12 months before being asset stripped the way microsoft raped nokia ... come to think of it, the beast may well be ready for another round just about then, and it would be a great way for them to try to prolong the inevitable WP8 failure.

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Stop

Utter BS. When we had blackerries as employees, IT was always complaining about how dealing with blackberry blowed. Unfortunately IT cries about anything that forces them to pause their warcraft session and get off their fat behinds.

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Re: The Blackberry

So...insightful technical and marketing analysis of RIM's problems?

All that effort spent by so many engineers over the years so people who don't know how things work can shout "hipster" "isheep" or "chav" at one another.

And the British class system - if you can't afford to pay too much for something, you deserve derision.

An iPhone is not a specially commissioned piece of jewellery or a painting designed to show off your knowledge and taste - nor is an Audi. They are heavily marketed consumer products (as is the basic Blackberry, currently being advertised on the Underground). Having more or less money, or different needs (a lot of mobile email versus taking lots of pictures, say) does not make one person better or worse than another.

And the failure to understand that, LarsG, is a large part of what is wrong with the English-speaking word, which is still in love with aristocracy.

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Flame

@ "life in the IT management department..."

This is one of the 3 main reasons for BB's demise.

1. Severely underpowered handsets (sucked at multimedia, didn't do Wireless AP tethering till years after the competition, FC's on large heavy webpages due to insufficient memory)

2. Kinda sucky app store were everything is overpriced

3. An IT administrator's wet dream. Unfortunately, IT is (for better or for worse) seen as a necessary evil dealings with which are best minimised. Pity that It is no longer seen as an enabler, value-multiplier, facilitator that can unlock peoples' and enterprises' potential. Let's face it this very fine-tuned tampering with the device (bluetooth blocking, anyone?) just pissed users off and most were only too happy to ditch them.

I, despite being with Android, still yearn for a qwerty handset with the build quality, battery life and holster features of a BB. Alas, I'm in the minority as nearly no qwerty Androids are produced any more. As for the battery life, I begin to suspect that the reason for BB endurance was the (largely) absense of much of anything "smart".

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Re: Good alternative

Cool kids indeed - a lot of teenagers own BlackBerries, I've noticed.

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Strange article

I'm not really sure it says anything at all.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good alternative

BB is for the kids whose parents will not buy them something better - not seen many kids that would regard them as cool these days and the ones that do have them only do because they are stuck in (often) 2 year contracts and can't wait to get out.

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Mushroom

Re: Good alternative

Windows Mobile / Windows Phone has a much better security record than Android or IOS....

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Trollface

Re: Good alternative

Security through obscurity?

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Devil

Re: Strange article

The article title just screamed 'TROLL HERE! ROFLMAO!'. I just figured this was one of those AOL-inspired articles that pop up from time-to-time....written purely to get people to click through and get more ads shown by making a generically tiresome statement that was negative about one particular phone platform and then hoping to watch the clicks come storming in.

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WTF?

Re: Good alternative

"Windows Mobile / Windows Phone has a much better security record than Android or IOS..."

Huh? I've owned every iteration of Windows CE/Mobile and I must say this post must be either a bad joke or an incredibly clueless trolling attempt... old WinMo as a secure phone? Priceless idiocy.

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Trollface

Re: Good alternative

>Security through obscurity?

Even better. Security through absence.

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Mushroom

Re: Good alternative

You mean like when Microsoft had over half the Smartphone market?

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Mushroom

Re: Good alternative

Wrong. 1 vulnerability in all version of Windows Mobile, versus over 300 in IOS and countless holes in Android....

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/14717/

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good alternative

And Google activates 1.5m handsets every day. Microsoft, well 1% of that, and of those, 90% get put into a big hole in the frozen wastelands of Finland, the other 10% they give to staff or out as "gifts" (bribes to you and I).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good alternative

@Edon - Linux on the desktop has about 1% market penetration, Windows on the phone has about 1% also. That doesn't mean that Linux on the desktop is insecure, or secure, in the same way that it doesn't mean that Windows on the phone in intrinsically secure or insecure. If you're going to call people out for being wrong all the time, please make your arguments hang together better.

I am reminded of a letter to Private Eye pointing out that falling sales figures at The Sun didn't mean that it was a better or worse publication, just that it was less popular. They also noted that Private Eye didn't sell 200k in a fortnight... Which is the better publication?

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Re: Good alternative

your best keeping your opinion of Windows phone security to yourself until you have any idea what it is your talking about. For the record, Windows phone 7.5 has never been cracked, through loop holes left open by networks or OEM shoddy provxml setup there have been ways of unlocking SOME devices, Lumia 900 owners will sadly tell you that there phone is tighter than a ducks arse as not even interop unlock is possible

So let me make that clear, at this time WP7.5 can not be opened up and unlocked through any Microsoft flaw

there hasn't been any viruses that im aware of to date on Wp7.5, there was a remote issue with the initial WP release in that a properly constructed malicious text could give you a headache but that was fixed and didn't compromise your security or data, it just stopped a service from running properly as it was unable to read the message hub data store, I haven't heard of any such issues since then.

I know im feeding the trolls here but im really getting fed up with the utter BS spouted about WP, it DOES have its flaws most of which Anti all things MS people probably know little about but seemingly some Android "Shills" as you put it are unable to even consider that WP has good points and instead retort with FUD when ever given the chance.

Downvote if you want as is the custom on this site for anything even remotely considered a Pro MS statement but all I ask is you please post links to WP vulnerabilities or Viruses, I am always willing to learn and don't mind being told im wrong, unlike a few vocal Android users that is.

Note, I specifically mention WP 7.5 not the initial release as that had the text message flaw and whilst its (WP7.0) policy settings were secure it was relatively easy to unlock (though still through OEM and Network flaws)

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Anonymous Coward

Microsoft can do nothing wrong in his eyes.

He is more than happy to ignore the broken Xbox360 they sold him, the hundreds of pounds they conned him out of for online play, the couple of hundred they charged him for the Xbox that sorta worked, the HD-DVD drive that's sat gathering dust, the double dip subscription model they have introduced where everything is hidden behind the Xbox Live Gold paywall and so on...

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FAIL

Re: Good alternative

"Wrong. 1 vulnerability in all version of Windows Mobile, versus over 300 in IOS and countless holes in Android....

http://secunia.com/advisories/product/14717/"

Hah, Secunia for WinMo? You don't really know this topic, right?

WinMo was inherently a piece of crap when it came to security, thanks to its architecture: apps were able to do pretty much anything, running at full rights etc - and while during WinCE->WinMo->WinMo6 things got gradually better the whole system was still broken, was running on an utterly crappy memory management, execution, scheduling etc. MS was so obviously clueless about the whole thing that at one point they argued the OEMs supposed to patch their own devices... no comment. =)

Read on: http://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=security&seqNum=231

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Re: Good alternative

Blackberry is for kids who want to be able to send unlimited texts to their friends for a fixed sum of money per month, while ensuring that people who aren't their friends aren't able to send an unlimited number of messages to them.

I would have thought that very few if any kids are on contracts. They mostly have pay as you go phones.

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Re: Good alternative

Upvoted sir, for I too am bored of the unimaginative, ill-informed MS bashing. Some people just need to let it go :D

(Yes they've thoroughly deserved it in the past, but we're not IN the past)

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Mushroom

Re: Good alternative

I read it, but i can only assume you didnt as there are no vulnerabilities there. It just cricises some of the decisions and manner in which code signing works, and says that they might be a route to potential exploits. However as we can now say with hindsight, they were wrong.

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Headmaster

Re: Good alternative

"...your best keeping your opinion of Windows phone security to yourself until you have any idea what it is your talking about..."

Well done. Getting the word your/you're wrong two times out of three in the same sentence —whilst calling someone else an idiot.

Priceless!

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MDM != BES

My BES has pages and pages of policies that can be applied to Blackberry 5-7 devices. The MDMs I've seen offer perhaps one tenth the granularity. Until that changes, BES 10 is still a possibility at our shop.

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Mushroom

Re: MDM != BES

So does SCCM 2012. Still not quite as flexible as Blackberry Enteprise Server, but it is getting there...

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Re: MDM != BES

Ha!

Well guess what, this is one of the 3 main reasons (IMO) that users ditched BB as soon as they were given half a chance. Users don't care for the granularity you treasure because most likely it will mean that some bored IT busybody will decide to lockdown some obscure feature that users will find (to their surpise and disgust) they need but cannot have.

Bluetooth profiles and services anyone!?

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The bottom of the curve

What makes anyone think that Nokia's reached the bottom? If nobody wanted Windows Phone 7 then nobody's going to want Windows Phone 8 because from the user's view it's practically the same.

RIM's sensible waiting till next year, firstly so they can finish the phones properly which is something MS didn't do with WP8 (no notification centre) and secondly so that Nokia and publish its dismal Christmas sales figures and WP8 can be declared officially dead. RIM don't need to bother so much about not having Christmas sales figures if they're aiming BB10 at enterprise.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The bottom of the curve

It's game over already for RIM - if you asked RIM how many of their installed base still expect to be using BB in 12-24 months or IT departments how many users were happy with the BB handsets and were not nagging for an iPhone it would probably be telling. I'd also like to see stats for new installations - I'd suspect people are just running contracts out or waiting until enough people are requesting a new handset to justify junking the old BB kit.

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Meh

I believe RIM is toast

It brings me no pleasure to say it, but I believe that the best thing they can hope for is to sell, whether the company or some of its IP.

Upvote if you agree, downvote if you don't…

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I believe RIM is toast

The governments of the world will not allow the IP sale unless they are given access to spy. Many already have a problem getting RIM to dot hat today, so they will use any sale to their advantage to leverage that.

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IT Angle

Re: I believe RIM is toast

YouTube is that way...

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

They should of opened up their BES to all devices long ago and become a services company.

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

I have to agree here. BB's main selling point has always been messaging. If they developed apps for other devices, they would open up their market and bring in a lot of new customers.

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

Or ignore you for being one of those people who tells everyone to 'upvote or downvote' them.

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

RIM has lost, it's over. It was over before they delayed BB10 another year. BB10, even if it's amazing, is too little, too late. They needed it 2-3 years ago to remain meaningful.

RIM needs to sell their IP, and any part of the business they can find takers for to anyone who will buy it, fire everyone who's left, and stop wasting the shareholders' money trying to raise the dead.

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

BB's main selling point has always been messaging.

If, by 'always', you mean in the last three years, maybe.

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Stop

Re: I believe RIM is toast

Don't count them out yet, they have reinvented themselves this year and are more than capable of turning things around. There are lots of people out there wanting an alternative to iOS/Android, even if only half of the current Blackberry subscribers upgrade to BB10, thats 40 million right there, then there are the other 50% of the global population that currently dont have a smartphone, that's a huge market....When they have 0 users and $0 - then they will be toast!

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WTF?

Re: I believe RIM is toast

>When they have 0 users and $0 - then they will be toast!

Wow somebody sure has no idea how Chapter 7 and 11 bankruptcies work. They will certainly still have more than zero customers when they go into bankruptcy court and probably a lot less than $0 when they do.

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Meh

Re: I believe RIM is toast

Ok, well I'm just trying to make a point that they haven't reached rock bottom yet - even as everyone is trying to count them out already!

Actually I worked at a company that went through Chapter 11 - not fun, and yes they hadn't got to complete zero in terms of "users", however they owed lots of money. From what I understand RIM still has 2 billion in cash and isn't loosing so much since their restructure. I agree that things will be tight by the time they get the new phones out the door...we will have to see...

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

Blackberries were able to do messaging before they were able to do voice calls. Back then you would have a Blackberry for messaging, and a separate breeze block sized luggable for making phone calls.

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Re: I believe RIM is toast

Except that BES, for a small company at least, is a bloated pain in the arse, on a par with iTunes and Hewlett Packard printer drivers.

I understand there is (going to be?) a decent management suite coming as part of Office365 for BlackBerry stalwarts. Of course, you have to be on a paid O365 plan, but that seems somewhat like the future for MS corporate productivity apps and Exchange.

BlackBerry are also canning the BlackBerry Management Centre at the end of January, which WAS serving as a lighter footprint alternative to BES(X) for some of my customers :/

This alone has encouraged me further to suggest they move platform.

BB10 better be a whole lot of good.

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Meh

No helpdesk required

Once the BBs are setup up and the correct policies are implemented, there is almost no need for any kind of support whatsover.

In our company we seldon hear anyone complain about the BBs, they are sturdy, have a good battery life and are pretty damned good at Email.

Personally I am happy to remain with the BB as my main work device, my Galaxy Note is fine for my personal stuff. The best of both worlds....

One bad thing though, the data subscriptions are expensive compared to standard subscriptions.....

PS : Will the ElReg authors kindly stop punting BYOD unless they can present some facts. "A big increase in BYOD", please show some proof to this pudding, with numbers please, not percentages... 3 more extra BYOD users would almost double the existing park which is a big increase indeed, percentage wise.....

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Paris Hilton

Child Phone

BB are simply for poor children in hoodies. Children of wealthier climbs have Androids and iOS devices.

Its bad enough to be unfashionable, but to associated with the less sociable acceptable "youths" is an image death sentence.

Paris - as she knows all about selling tat to the chavs.

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Anonymous Coward

Blackberries are still around as people either do not know better, are waiting for their contracts to expire or lazy IT departments or IT managers who spent a load on BES and now stick with it even though the users would prefer an iPhone or Android. Most companies I know are migrating users off BB onto iPhones.

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