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back to article Microsoft blasts PC makers: It's YOUR fault Windows 8 crash landed

Microsoft blames PC makers for underwhelming Windows 8 sales over Christmas, The Register has learned. The software giant accused manufacturers of not building enough attractive Win 8-powered touchscreen tablets. But the computer makers are fighting back: they claimed that if they’d followed Microsoft’s hardware requirements and …

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Gimp

Well...

They can relaunch a turd as many times as they want, it's still not going to smell of roses.

Reminds me of the say "You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter". Maybe that's what they are doing.

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Re: Well...

I believe Mythbusters did indeed prove that you can polish a turd!

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IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

I have to laugh. After all the negative reviews of Windows 8 and people saying consumers don't want it, they're now blaming the OEMs.

MSFT just don't get it.

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Holmes

Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Obviously, Windows 8 is the Windows of pastel-coloured rectangles. If manufacturers can't get it together to manufacture pastel-coloured boxes for it, then, obviously it is not going to sell.

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Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Microsoft just made the common mistake many big companies make: They say "It is not our fault". People not seeing movies, it is not our fault because we know our movies are great therefore it must be piracy. People not buying new CD's, it is not our because fault because we know our music is great therefore it must be piracy. People not buying Windows 8 machines, it is not our fault because we know people like this new UI therefore it must be the OEM's fault.

Far too often today people refuse to admit they made a mistake until they have no choice but to admit. You do not need to admit a mistake publicly, but at least stop blaming others and consider you may have made a poor decision.

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Silver badge

Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Since when did MS get to dictate what people produced or stocked? Whether you can have their badge or OS, okay, bit overbearing - and been hung over the coals in terms of monopolistic practices before - but if that's what you want to do...

But to tell a manufacturer (sometimes direct competitors in certain industries) what to make, and expect them to make it, and stock it, and push it - where does that come from? If people aren't buying product X, I'll be damned if the company that makes software to go on product X will tell me to make more or stock more or sell more, and that it's my fault their software isn't selling. They could ask, politely, given certain balancing rewards for myself but to dictate it?

MS really just don't know what their customers, suppliers, partners, or anyone else wants. They are solely interested in just selling whatever junk they can make by any means necessary, and everybody else better play along. Maybe that's why they have to buy a part of Dell to actually make a break into the hardware side.

We really need a manufacturer's revolt in the PC market, where people just say "enough", and start selling Android, or even Apple(!) desktops as "PC's" and so dilute the meaning to the point where Windows doesn't mean anything any more.

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Anonymous Coward

@Lee Dowling - Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Erm, let me guess! You've been somewhere else in a distant galaxy all these decades since the launch of MS-DOS, weren't you ? Otherwise you should have known that MS indeed dictates (and they always did) to OEMs on every little detail. Just read something on the net about the netbook saga and you'll get up to speed with the rest of us.

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Re: Well...

Microsoft has mistaken vendor lock-in as brand loyalty. Once you break the reason why people bought Microsoft products, Microsoft doesn't have any leverage..

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

you should have known that MS indeed dictates (and they always did) to OEMs on every little detail.

Indeed! Why do keyboards need 'windows' keys?

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Bronze badge
Happy

Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Probably also a case of Microsoft no longer being in a position to bully people they way they have....

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Gimp

Re: Well...

well on Mythbusters they did polish a turd and got it quite shiny(ok two turds).but they underestimated how well windows 7 went over,reminds me of when coke came out with new coke.we still use windows xp on several machines at work. for what they are used for XP is more than enough of a OS.

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Gold badge
Facepalm

Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

"We really need a manufacturer's revolt in the PC market, where people just say "enough", and start selling Android, "

Need it, yes. Get it. No.

During the period that MS charged for MSDOS per # of PCs the mfg made regardless of wheather or not they had MSDOS loaded. When that was exposed they started charging for the level of Intel processor it was running (Or was it the other way around?) andy of the mfgs could have ratted them out.

None of them did because they recognized MS's effective monopoly of the desktop market. The OS tail wags the H/W dog. You've either got an MS license for Windows WTF version it's called this 21 month cycle or you don't and as a mfg you're a dead dog if you don't.

"or even Apple(!) desktops as "PC's" "

Apple were partly saved from going under by MS partly (it is said) to demonstrate there was

competition in the desktop market. Despite Apple core hardware being (in effect) a PC try loading another OS on their hardware and selling it and see what happens.

Dell appear to be the one that has come closest and that's on a very low level.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: andy of the mfgs

Andy, of the mfgs?

Who was that Andy that held such power and yet failed the future by not using it? Has he ever forgiven himself?

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FAIL

Re: and so dilute the meaning to the point where Windows doesn't mean anything any more

Microsoft is doing a fine job of that all by themselves

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

"Indeed! Why do keyboards need 'windows' keys?"

Which is why it's refreshing to see no such thing on the Chromebooks. Perhaps it's a sign of things to come - and it can only be better for customers.

Apple have started on that same path Microsoft marched for many a year, showing arrogance and indifference to customers by dictating what software they must now use along with the new hardware you must have to run it. Microsoft no longer seem particularly relevant in the innovation game to the average punter despite being the only company really trying, albeit shoddily, to push new interface ideas into the maintream. So they're not in a strong enough position to threaten Apple's 'brand' dominance (ignoring of course their obvious massive install-base, but that's a different subject). Luckily Android has risen in profile and prominence enough to challenge Apple head-on and force them to stay competitive and it may prove to be Microsoft's saviours, staving off stagnation in the market and total Apple product dominance in the fastest growth form factors, and buying MS some time to get their act together and get back into the game.

Interesting times to be a customer in the tech market after so many years of 'same old, same old'.

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Happy

Re: andy of the mfgs

"Andy, of the mfgs?

Who was that Andy that held such power and yet failed the future by not using it? Has he ever forgiven himself?"

Ho Ho.

I did of course mean "any." My bad.

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Happy

Re: Well...

The reason Win8 didn't kick start a hardware buying frenzy is because it works so well on old gear.

I am typing this on an Acer laptop that shipped with vista (dog). I enjoyed a couple of years of Win7 and recently upgraded to Win 8. With Win 7 I enjoyed stability and much better media and vitualisation. However with Win 8, after two weeks of abject horror twice as traumatic as the Office Ribbon, I now have the best OS I gave ever used. It feels like a new upgraded machine it is so quick. It is absolutely stable and after the initial learning curve it feels a lot more up to date than Win7 did. It's also great to have two OS's for the price of one - I spend most of my time on the desktop but it's cool to play with the Metro in my 'free time'.

I think Win 8 will be seen as a classic in years to come - a bit like XP. It took AGES for business to migrate from 2000 and consumers to migrate from Win98 but they did come eventually!

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Devil

Re: I think Win 8 will be seen as a classic in years to come

Err... no, I really don't think so. Unless in years to come the meaning of the word 'classic' has evolved to become 'gigaturd'. Incidentally, just to prove I'm not hatin' on MS, I likewise refute the 'dog' tag (hur hur) you attributed to Vista. With both SPs 1 & 2 installed it contains the W7 driver model & is nippy as you could like. Just my ten quids' worth.

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Re: Well...

I still use a Windows 95 computer at work, and it is the most stable machine I use!

It runs all the programs I need and I can get work done faster on this machine using ancient software than I can with all the bloatware and distractions on newer machines ;)

nor do I worry about virus infection because who is targeting Windows 95? No one!

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Happy

Re: Well...

I'm with you. Have a Fujitsu lappy that came preloaded with Vista. I always thought it was a bit of an underperformer, and I never wanted to pay what MS wanted for the W7 upgrade. I grabbed the cheap W8 upgrade and installed it. Now my computer works much better. Admittedly, have some issues with the learning curve / ridiculous switching back and forth of the views, but on the whole I'm satisfied.

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Windows

Re: Well...

mmmm.... Classic, that I wonder. However I do think that Win 8 is better than it is perceived and expressed on this forum. I've used the majority of the Windows OS's since Windows 3.1 and liked all since WinXP. However some people aren't quite that accepting of change and you still see people ranting about not changing off of Windows XP. The Metro/Modern UI interface is a bit of a shock, and I do tend to spend the majority of my time in the Desktop version of the UI. However I expect that having a shared UI interface for all form factors was in fact a good idea. I also expect that MS is in fact "all in" and that we will be seeing the Metro/Modern UI for a couple of iterations, not only desktop/laptop/tablet, but also Xbox 720 and Windows Phone. So while I am not sure I am SUPER THRILLED with it and I do think that it requires some degree of getting used to as well as some changes, it will be here for a while.

However some people aren't happy unless they are drooling at the mouth and enraged, so be it.

So those that hate Metro/Modern UI, RANT ON!!!

Classic, I am not sure. But we will be seeing Metro for a while.

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kb
Windows

Re: Well...

Well its not only that, oh and FYI it was NOT "Vista PREMIUM Capable" as that would have meant it could actually run Vista HP, no what got them was it was Vista CAPABLE which they had set the bar so low so that Intel could unload their God awful 9xx chipsets that frankly you could have sold P3 Celerons and gotten that title as the bar was THAT low. It turned out "Vista capable" was Vista"BASIC" capable which the courts ruled wasn't Vista, it was a crippled netbook OS.

Now as far as the turd goes...sigh, when you need a Win 7 PC to Google how to use the Win 8 PC? Something has gone horribly wrong and before any apologists chime in with "Oh you are just a Luddite you don't want to learn new things" or "All you need to do is (ton of keyboard crud)" I learned enough to do basic tasks in Linux, not do anything fancy, just basics, in about an hour, Android even less than that, about a half hour, whereas 4 days later I still couldn't find basic features in Win 8. I mean the UI doesn't even follow any established guidelines or even common sense. You get to the shutdown from a SETTINGS icon, really? And I'm far from the only one, here is a guy that writes fricking tech articles all day and even HE needed a Win 7 PC to Google how to use the brand new Win 8 PC in front of him. There is NO context clues, no consistency on how things work, its just kinda random..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTYet-qf1jo

Everyone should watch that video because as a tech writer he explains exactly what is wrong (he goes so far as to say there should be a recall) I would only add that in my little shop I had a frankly beautiful Athlon triple core running Win 8 for nearly 7 months for people to try and not only did I not get a SINGLE person saying they actually LIKED Win 8, the closest i could get to a compliment is "Well it may be alright on a cellphone" but not a single person made me an offer on that system, even though it was frankly a beautiful machine. I put Win 7 HP on it? Sold it in less than 3 days. Hmmm...7 months VS 3 days...yeah as a retailer that is all i need to know right there.

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kb
Megaphone

Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Riiight, a bog standard X86 laptop that is so locked down that only by switching to "dev mode" and jumping through a page and a half worth of CLI BS and possibly voiding your warranty (as you have to completely wipe the drive, no dual booting allowed) is "better" than what we had before?

Love 'em or hate 'em but I can take any Windows laptop and in 10 minutes be booting from one of dozens of distros in live CD or installer form. ChromeBooks are so locked down there is exactly ONE Linux distro that can boot onto a ChromeBook and its a bootloader hacked version of Ubuntu put out by one guy, yeah sure that is gonna get a LOT of support.

I'm all for choice and making MSFT actually compete as the next guy, I think competition is great, this is one of the reasons why i still build AMD exclusively but do NOT replace one corporate master with another, okay guys? Honestly Apple, Google, and MSFT seem to be having this contest called "who can be more of an abuser of their customers" so we should be screaming bloody murder about the dirty stuff Google does and just because MSFT is also terrible doesn't give Google a free pass.

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Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

XP SP3. Now, and forever!

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Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Nip down to your local Wm Morrisons - some of their own label branded product packaging (ceral bars / health biscuit snack bars etc) look like the Windows 8 interface.

Would you buy one if it were boxed like that?

Moot point I think.

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Pint

Re andy of the mfgs: My Kingdom for a Good Typo

Always a welcome ray of light. Loved this one :)

Have a beer, sir!

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Happy

Re: andy of the mfgs

mfgs? That's those little LEGO people isn't it? You know the ones of Star Wars characters one of which must be called Andy!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Well...

"nor do I worry about virus infection because who is targeting Windows 95? No one!', and if/when an obscure bug is found who's going to give a rat's arse about you and your problem?!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Well...

Yes. I agree. We've had similar results in IT support Colin too.

See you at the Christmas Party.

Regards

John Doe

IT Support

RescueMyOnlineReputation.Com

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Thumb Up

Re: IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Yes I still run it does all I want why change? There does seem to be a fundamental flaw in touch screen thinking. Who would use it outside the tablet/phone market? I have 2 28" screens that allow me to sit feet away and work why would I want to put grubby fingure marks on the screen - it's nonsense. The mouse and keyboard are fit for purpose and cheap to replace - how much is a touch screen?

I have a relation who works in the health service and huge touch screens installed on wards have been a disaster - cost a mint nobody uses them. They're probably bug infested anyway.

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Bronze badge

Re: @Lee Dowling - IT's what happens when you don't listen to your customers

Lost me totally beginning at "Apple have *started* ... (emphasis added).

And Apple's main reaction to Android seems to have been to sue the manufacturers who use it. I suppose that might be considered innovation, but not in the context here.

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FAIL

Re: Well...

"However with Win 8, after two weeks of abject horror twice as traumatic as the Office Ribbon, I now have the best OS I gave ever used."

I am so fucking fed up with spending MY TIME, doing Microsoft Rework "brain surgery"on computers, while incurring losses, in this case, 2 weeks of losses, and then having to work an extra 2 weeks overtime to make up for the losses, that my answer to this is "Fuck Microsoft".

That is a WHOLE month of fucked up earnings.... Fucked up clients and Fucked up home life.

Yeah spend X dollars to buy an OS, and the lose XXXXXXXX dollars to make it fucking work.

Yeah great deal.

Remind me why suicide will make my life better.

I suppose that you still cannot get rid of the idiot ribbon either.

Fail - because Microsoft just is.

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Re: Well...

do you not think windows 95 had enough well documented bugs to fry my system?

my point is it's hardly likely anyone would bother attacking a windows 95 system, not that you should go and install it right away and it would solve all your problems..

but imagine how fast it would run on a modern machine, not the Pentium II that it currently resides on ;)

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FAIL

Re: Well...

And I suppose Microsoft will also complain about poor sales of Windows Phone devices until someone tells them the hard truth that by removing USB cable synch functionality with Outlook the phone is unuseable by 99% of their loyal user base. What moron made THAT decision?

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Bronze badge
Thumb Up

Re: Well...

I too have burned countless days fighting Windows and fixing family computers.

Eventually (and it took years) I convinced all my extended family to buy Macs. I don't get support calls any more.

This is a fact, like it or lump it.

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Devil

Re: Well...

Hah, like Fista was hailed by the users as the saver of all things PC... oh, wait: that was Win7. O___o

When I built my i7-based rig in 2008, Fista ran pretty decently; but 7 ran rings around it.

Either your laptop is a mega-rig, or you're a Ballmer-licker trying to shill the forums and comments.

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This post has been deleted by a moderator

FAIL

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

oooh, you're slipping Eadon...your anti/ms bile was only 2nd post! We were all expecting to see your biased dribble cruise into 1st post within seconds of the article being posted...

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Silver badge

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

Sliverburn - are you trying to become an ubertroll

Uberubertroll.

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Re: Windows 8 FAIL

For many years Microsoft has had more hardware designers than most of its OEMs put together. I imagine that after the OEMs did such a bad job of designing early grey boxes, that Microsoft wanted to provide some thought leadership.

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Meh

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

(let's face it, it's rubbish

No, it's an improvement over Win7 which was itself rather good.

If you don't like the interface, that's your right but the OS is fine. Then again, you're on record here as declaring Windows 7 "unfit for purpose" which I think marks you as a zealous idiot rather than any kind of useful judge.

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Silver badge
Windows

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

Honestly I think it comes down to Microsoft attempting the 'we know best' route... again.

They did the same with the ribbon, they launch a new UI, force it on everyone. Some people adapted and enjoyed it, it attracted a few people from different crowds, but a fair portion of the existing market for office migrated to libreoffice or openoffice. They forgot that people have a choice and if they don't like something they can leave.

Enter windows 8, they push a new UI which is not suited to a desktop environment, or a laptop environment, or a business environment, but works well on tablets and phones. Some people have/will adapt. Some people may migrate over liking the new simplified interface. But a fair portion are going to say "NO" and begin looking elsewhere, macs and linux come to mind.

Yes you can re-enable the desktop mode as a main feature, but a lot of people don't want to have to go through several steps each time they use their computer just to get the environment the way they like. An OS is meant to 'just work' not 'just work, after you move the mouse here, click there, open run, go to regedit, change a 0 for a 1, reboot, go to the bottom left corner, show desktop mode"

And god forbid if they deem windows 8 a 'success' then they'll likely disable the desktop permanently (as they have done with the old taskbars vs the ribbon)

I used to use a lot of microsoft software, but every time they've forced a change on us I've chosen to migrate away to a free version with an interface I like, rather than one I tolerate. Right now the only reason I keep windows is for visual studio and games. And thanks to mono / WINE I may not even need it for that any more.

Some may like it, it's true. But Microsoft need to learn that they can't just tell people to like change and force it on them. They need to learn that not everybody likes change, not everybody wants a ribbon, or a touch interface, or to jump through hoops to do anything.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

@Eadon - You were complaining the other day that MS surface cost too much to be a serious contender, but now your complaining that it's competing with the OEMs.

Try to think your arguments through before using them.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

If you don't like the interface, that's your right but the OS is fine.

Well the problem with Windows (and OSX too) is that the user interface is an integral part of the OS. Don't like it? You're out of luck, gotta live with it anyway. Since the user interface and the underlying OS are so tightly coupled, IMHO it makes perfect sense to declare the whole lot "rubbish" if one thinks that either part is rubbish (I'm not saying Win8 is rubbish, mind you: I didn't try it yet).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

I took delivery of a new windows machine six weeks ago. You have it spot on. It's not that the new UI was counter-intuitive to the point it was just difficult to use, but for work it was near impossible.

I can't imagine any corporation taking the hit on productivity by taking on this mess.

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Bronze badge
Boffin

Re: Windows 8 FAIL

"a fair portion of the existing market for office migrated to libreoffice or openoffice"

Not the paying market.

Re: This whole story - Microsoft seem to have missed the fundamental point that not everybody wants or needs a tablet. If I can't play BF3 @1920x1200 and spend all day writing code on a device it's probably no use to me, and it is a market that makes up maybe 90% of windows' desktop market that isn't enterprise. And the enterprise hates it. So that's tablets done. The OS? Too much touch - waiting for Leap.

iPad is for casuals and people who haven't realised it yet - and it doesn't have legs. People need to stop trying to copy it.

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