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back to article HP sacks English employees to bag Scots gov jobs cash

HP will axe workers in Sheffield and shunt their roles to Renfrewshire in Scotland to bag a £7m grant from the Scottish government, the Public and Commercial Services (PCS) trade union claims. It's understood the multimillion-pound grant from the public purse is a reward for boosting local employment. About a third of support …

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FAIL

English Taxpayers

English taxpayers giving money to Scotland so they can subsidise jobs at the expense of England. Why dont the English get a vote on an independent Scotland?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Because many would vote for it to be independent, keeping

I wouldn't myself, although I think the whole devolution process was an unfair mess, managed by idiots to apease those who could shout louder, and just gave power to even more idiots who could shout loud......

I say the UK needs to stay United, United we stand, divided we fall...

But with politics as it is, we'll start having countys breaking away form the Union soon!

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Re: English Taxpayers

Because English are from England and Scottish are from Scotland.

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Anonymous Coward

Because Scotland is a NET CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UK EXCHEQUER

This is going to come as a shock to you, but Scotland puts more into the Exchequer and gets less out than the UK as a whole.

For putting that money in, Scotland gets a lesser portion back, it can't borrow, it can't print money like the BoE, it has a fixed budget.

It then has to balance it's pocket money.

If you want those policies, form or vote for a party that will put them in place

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FAIL

Re: English Taxpayers

RE: Why don't the English get a vote on an independent Scotland - because the principle is SELF determination - i.e., each nation deciding its own future. England is equally able to decide its own future, in or out of the union :-)

As for "English" taxpayers - well, erm, bit of a newsflash, but those in Northern Ireland, Wales and yes, even people in Scotland pay taxes too.

Although Scotland has 8.4% of the UK's population, about 9.3% of all UK spending is up here. Many people would say that that suggests a subsidy, as you have done. What that fails to take into account is that 9.9% of all the UK's revenue comes from Scotland.

So in fact, Scotland subsidises the rest of the UK, not the other way around.

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Silver badge

Re: English Taxpayers

We pay taxes too. How do you knbow it isn't our own taxes paying for this you sassenach?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

You havent heard of the "Oil and Gas" and "Scotch Whisky" indutries I guess!!!???!!?

Oh Dear.............

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Sorry - there is some confusion here:

You state that 9.9% of UK GDP comes from Scotland - close I think, was nearer 8.8% in 2011 but this is not the same as UK Government revenue (tax receipts) which is a bit lower still at around 8.1% (2011 figures) whereas Scotland receives, as you say, 9.3% of public sector spending.

In short the tax take (including oil taxes) is proportionally lower against GDP per head than in the UK which is why Scotland is currently running a (proportionally) higher deficit.

There is an argument that the discrepancy between GDP contribution and tax contribution is due to the fact that the overall subsidy from the UK to Scotland artificially boosts the Scottish GDP - these are very much related factors.

Personally I neither condemn nor condone Scottish independence, my own heritage is Scottish, Irish and French, but be careful what you wish for. It is much easier to predict how things would be if nothing changed, vs. what does appear to be a massive gamble.

Welcome further debate.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

a lot of the "Scotch Whisky" industry uses English barley.

Though there is a flourishing English whiskey distillery not so many miles from where I am typing. Benefits from one of Scotland's greatest exports - Scotsmen (and women - though not in this case)

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Re: English Taxpayers

Oil and gas are declining and Scotch whisky is subject to volatile changes in consumer taste, and peanuts in global terms anyway. Get real. We Scors need to stay inside the tent.

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Gav
FAIL

Fooled again

As usual, a multinational plays one country off against another, and the petty minded in both fall for it _every_ _single_ _time_. This only twist in this is that its both countries in the United Kingdom.

HP laugh all the way to the bank with their subsidised profit, while the blind nationalists on both sides argue between themselves. I hope those flags you're wrapping yourselves in are warm, because a multinational has fleeced you, yet again.

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Silver badge

Re: English Taxpayers

Other important things Scotland contributes to the UK economy:

RBS

Clydesdale Bank

HBOS (the last third of this one)

Fred Goodwin's pension

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Because Scotland is a NET CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UK EXCHEQUER

No it doesn't, Scotland gets a much higher per person net expenditure than the rest of the UK, and produces much lower revenues.

The only way Scotland can pretend not to be a burden on the rest of us is if you count off shore oil / gas, which is a national asset and not the result of Scottish productivity.

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Re: English Taxpayers

"Why dont the English get a vote on an independent Scotland?

"Because many would vote for it to be independent..."

If the PM wanted to keep Scotland in the UK, why did he head north of the border and campaign for a 'NO' vote?

That is a red rag to a bull for the Yes vote.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Since when has companies relocating employees to cheaper, third world countries been news?

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Silver badge

Re: English Taxpayers

It does make you wonder what the outcry would (or wouldn't) be if there were sessions in Westminster where the laws of England were voted on (as distinct from those of the UK), from which MPs from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were excluded.

Fundamentally that seems to be the heart of the law debate - that all MPs seem to get a vote on English law as well as UK law, which isn't the case for Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish law due to their having their own separate parliaments/assemblies/etc.

Such a distinction would I guess help as tax and suchlike would then follow suit along similar lines. Although for those who want closer ties rather than a group of essentially separate nations then it wouldn't be as welcome probably.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Do shut up. Londoners get more subsidy than the Scots per head. Scotland also provides more funds to the English than it gets back (as well as having its resources stripped by the English).

High-time Scotland went independent. Maybe a few of the North England counties would join and free themselves from the corrupt cancer that is London.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

<quote>It does make you wonder what the outcry would (or wouldn't) be if there were sessions in Westminster where the laws of England were voted on (as distinct from those of the UK), from which MPs from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were excluded.

Fundamentally that seems to be the heart of the law debate - that all MPs seem to get a vote on English law as well as UK law, which isn't the case for Scottish, Welsh and N. Irish law due to their having their own separate parliaments/assemblies/etc.

Such a distinction would I guess help as tax and suchlike would then follow suit along similar lines. Although for those who want closer ties rather than a group of essentially separate nations then it wouldn't be as welcome probably.</endquote>

Because Westminster is the UK parliament, not the English parliament, if you want an English parliament and independence from the Union then vote for it.

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Megaphone

Re: English Taxpayers

I agree London gets the most heavily subsidised. Personally I think we end devolution because it causes more division (The "Scottish Police" force instead of Scottish regional police is a great example of this) and costs a lot of money.

Some of the devolved powers could then be passed onto LGA's (tuition fees, prescription medicine, etc..), so people would get more say on how certain things are spent, this would make Local Councillors more important.

We should then force parliament to sit in a different country each year, i.e. Year 1 Belfast, Year 2 Cardiff, Year 3 Edinburgh, Year 4 Westminster.

The issues which caused Scotland to want to devolve are the intense London centric view of our government, perhaps if we forced them to see the rest of the UK they would start spreading government investment. Secondly since we are already paying for them to stay in London, the cost of 1 year paying for a 12 month contract in Cardiff, Belfast, Edinburgh, etc... should cancel out the relocation costs (since they are cheaper to live in).

*Just my own opinion

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

London gets more subsidy than the scots per head? You sure about that?

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

This "Oil and Gas are declining" bit

I take it that is why there have been so many announcements of investment in the Oil and Gas industry?

That the lifetimes of the fields keep getting extended?

That these are volatile is apparently NOT a problem when the UK Exchequer wishes to use them, and the Finance Industry, only the Scots

Fancy that

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

RBS and HBOS are registered on the LONDON Stock Exchange. You may have heard of London, it is in England.

Not sure where the Clydesdale comes into it, as it wasn't hit like the others.

Now, the"bailout" for such banks comes form the country in which the business is done. So, a large wodge of cash came from the Yanks.

Only 10% of it's business was in Scotland, so that would have been that share. The rest from Westminster

Where do RBS and HBOS and their employees pay their taxes to in the good times? Who will get th ebenefit of the sale, Westminster, nothing to do with Scotland

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English Parliament

Interestingly enough I doubt you'd get much argument from the people of the other parts of the UK.

But you woul;d have to do a proper job of delineating between UK and English issues

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Anonymous Coward

Actually English MPs DO get to vote on purely Scottish matters

It's rarer than it used to be, but it still happens, and Scottish Questions is usually dominated by English MPs

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

"Do shut up. Londoners get more subsidy than the Scots per head. Scotland also provides more funds to the English than it gets back (as well as having its resources stripped by the English)."

Yes, because comparing London to the whole of Scotland is sensible. There are far more organs of the state and infrastructure based in London than there are across the rest of the country, this is a classic false argument peddled by the SNP because it sounds shocking, however doesn't stand up to any cursory examination.

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Re: English Taxpayers

Only for knuckle draggers - those with any common sense are waiting on the actual non-biased facts to come from the governments on both sides of the border and from the EU etc. Personally I detect Cameron, but I'm very skeptical of anything that comes out of Emperor Salmonds mouth too.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

@AC 12:32 GMT:

Just because a company is registered on the LONDON Stock Exchange, does not mean it is English. There are hundreds of foreign companies listed on the LSE, because they either maintain multiple listings (one on LSE and one in their home country), or because they are attracted by the regulatory regime. Do NOT make a simplistic assumption based on listing. HSBC for example is listed in London, Hong Kong, New York and Paris, amongst others. Which country identity do they adopt?

Here are the registered headquarters addresses for RBS and HBOS:

Registered Head Office of The Royal Bank of Scotland Group: St Andrew Square, Edinburgh

Registered Head Office of The Lloyds Banking Group: The Mound, Edinburgh

The Lloyds Banking group includes Lloyds TSB Bank plc (with registered head office in Gresham Street, London) and Bank of Scotland plc (with registered head office at The Mound, Edinburgh). Halifax is a subsidiary of Bank of Scotland plc and trades under their banking licence.

HSBC (HSBC Holdings) on the other hand: 8 Canada Square, London.

That makes Lloyds/HBOS and RBS Scottish, and HSBC English. Simples.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Londoners also make much more of a contribution to the GDP than the Scots per head...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Oil and Gas have near zero to do with Scotland anyway other than happening to be off the coast of it.

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Thumb Down

Re: English Taxpayers

RBS... HBOS, Clydesdale bank........ all owned by multinationals...

Just because they started in Scotland doesn't make them Scottish any more.. they became huge multinationals.. in fact the clydesdale was bought over in 1988 by an Aussie bank , as was the midland Bank.

please read further than the bloody daily mail for yer facts

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Thumb Down

Re: Because Scotland is a NET CONTRIBUTOR TO THE UK EXCHEQUER

oh really... i think you'll find that the per capita spend goes like this

top of the list.. London... then Northern Ireland then Scotland.. but hey.. don't let facts get in your way

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Re: English Taxpayers

that was the point of Tam Dalyell's "West Lothian Question" in the 1970's

Under the act of the union separate and distinct legal systems were guaranteed for Scotland and England.. with few exceptions reserved to Westminster

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Re: English Taxpayers

yes it's a fact from official govt figures...

London top per capita spending... then northern Ireland then Scotland

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Re: English Taxpayers

what youy are also failing to consider as a factor is that the only oil and gas revenues counted in the G.E.R.S figures(govt expenditure and revenue Scotland) figures are ON SHORE revenues. The oil and gas revenues are hidden as earnings from "Extra-regio territories" so add those on.... and you'll find a different story.

Also you'll find that 20% of all corporation tax revenues in the UK are from Scotland.

As to the "careful what you wish for" silliness.... well put simply you'll find that the 500 questions put up by the "better together campaign" are unanswerable as they can only be answered by two sets of circumstances.......

one that Westminster , as recommended by the electoral commission, entered into pre-negotiations with the present Scottish Govt so as to clarify positions and probabilities.

Two they could only be answered by the elected govt of an independent Scotland... an election that won't happen till 2016 should a yes vote occur.

Also we have the OECD making a laughing stock of the office of budget responsibilities figures... telling us that the oil/gas in the North Sea alone would be worth up to 4 trillion(min 1.5 trillions).. i wish my life could be THAT uncertain.

Also there is oil/gas off the West coast and a lion share of the Claim at Rockall(shared with Iceland and Ireland) now those assets lend stability, especially when managed using the Norwegian Model which gives Norway a state oil fund which bailed out the world bank from pocket change.....

Also, as recently described by Lesley Riddoch, a journalist.. Scotland "is the Saudi Arabia of renewables" both in terms of use but also research..

Mind you, come independence we will have back the 6000 square miles of Scottish waters re-zoned on the fly by Blair and Brown in 1999... a ridiculous situation whereby if you sail 12 miles off the coast of Fife.. you are in English waters.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

"The oil and gas revenues are hidden as earnings from "Extra-regio territories" so add those on.... and you'll find a different story."

But that's in the middle of the Ocean and nothing to do with Scotland. Hence why it is excluded.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

" come independence we will have back the 6000 square miles of Scottish waters re-zoned on the fly by Blair and Brown in 1999... a ridiculous situation whereby if you sail 12 miles off the coast of Fife.. you are in English waters."

No you won't be getting it 'back' - why do you think they did it? You lot are a bit slow up North....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

"Oil and Gas have near zero to do with Scotland anyway other than happening to be off the coast of it."

Really? I guess I must be imagining the industry that runs and supports it, including all the companies and workers in and around Aberdeen and the rest of the North East and North of Scotland, the oil depot in Sullom Voe, Shetland, the Gas processing plants at St Fergus and Mossmorran, the refineries at Grangemouth.

But maybe you're right, the petrol and gas just go straight from the sea to your local petrol station and your cooker don't they?

I mean whisky's got nothing to do with Scotland has it, just happens to be distilled there?

Retard.

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Gav
Facepalm

Re: English Taxpayers

Re: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2100345/Londons-taxes-prop-rest-UK-One-pound-earned-capital-funds-rest-country.html

A stupid comparison if there ever was one. This is the result of a capital city doing what a capital city is supposed to do. If there wasn't a concentration of money and resources, and therefore taxes, in London it would be failing in its role as a capital.

I've no problem with London getting more money spent on it. It's a huge capital city, so no surprise it takes the lion's share of investment . But the line needs to be drawn when those in London start bleating about how they're paying money out to the rest of the country. You're living in the capital. That's your job. If London doesn't want to be the capital any more, I'm sure there would be other cities happy to take on the responsibility and the perks.

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Anonymous Coward

Per Capita Spent does not negate Net Contributor

One can get money back, but still contribute more to the pot, which is what is happening.

Also, that per capita spent includes money spent in Lodon, on MOD for example, on "Scotland's behalf"

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Anonymous Coward

Scvotl;and's International Waters

Your argument that it is "nothing to do with Scotland" is silly.

Perhpas I can dig up the New Forest? The Royal Line that planted it died out, it's nothing to do with England. I'll have it then

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Bronze badge

Re: English Taxpayers

"Gas processing plants at St Fergus and Mossmorran"

My gas comes ashore at Bacton on the coast of Norfolk from the southern parts of the North Sea.

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Re: English Taxpayers

@AC 12:32

RBS and HBOS are registered on the LONDON Stock Exchange. You may have heard of London, it is in England.

And if they were Scottish they'd be registered on the Edinburgh Stock Exchange? I think the last business done there was to finance the Darien Scheme (another Scottish financial disaster - the financial fallout from this was the main reason for the Union).

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Re Re: English Taxpayers (12:26)

Interestingly, from that report:

"The figures will be relevent to the ongoing discussion of independence for Scotland. Scotland receives no net subsidy." (sic)

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Facepalm

@Gregor - Re: English Taxpayers

Wrote :- "RE: Why don't the English get a vote on an independent Scotland - because the principle is SELF determination - i.e., each nation deciding its own future. England is equally able to decide its own future, in or out of the union"

Er ..... paradox there. Wouldn't the English (and Welsh) voting in a Scottish-independence-from-England/Wales referendum be exactly the same in principle as the Engish/Welsh voting in a English/Welsh-independence-from-Scotland referendum? I take it you would not object to the latter? Your own argument could be used to claim that Scottish people should be _excluded_ from a referendum on the split!

So it wouldn't it be logical to allow English, Welsh and Scottish _all_ to vote in a England/Wales - Scotland split. No ?

The paradox is rooted in your treatment of Scotland as a nation. It is not, nor is England; they ceased to be nations in 1707. Today, Great Britain is a nation and a split would affect all the people.

I loved the way a Scottish Nationalist summed up his position on TV news once. It was like "We think London is too far away from Scotland to understand its problems. So we want to be ruled from Brussels."

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Re: English Taxpayers

well the legal experts at the European Journal of International Law would beg to differ with you on that and i would hazard a guess they , being experts in international law would know better than you or I.

They are on Scotland's portion of the continental shelf.. and thus... Scottish.... and thus for tax and revenue purposes.. Scottish... so they invent "extra-regio territories" to hide the extent of the riches of Scottish revenues

It excluded so as to artificially deflate Scotland's contribution to the UK.

This is something that BOTH the OECD and the European Journal of international law have stated as did Ted Heath when he admitted in a recent interview that Successive tory and labour govts have lied their asses off about the worth and amount of Scottish oil and gas for YEARS.

Also there's the McCrone report by a govt economist which was declared a state secret which stated that Scotland, as an independent nation would " be in an embarrassingly large surplus as an independent nation" as compared to it's then position within the UK(1973/4)

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Re: @Gregor - English Taxpayers

<blockquote>The paradox is rooted in your treatment of Scotland as a nation. It is not, nor is England; they ceased to be nations in 1707</blockquote>

I would re-read and then get a legal opinion on that piece of idiocy....

Scotland and England NEVER ceased to be nations.... not ever.

why do you think there are separate and distinct legal systems in place???

why do you think that when, for example the Westminster apllied for the share of the oil/gas off Rockall it did so "For and on Behalf of the Nation of Scotland"........ research that.. you might learn something

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Silver badge

Re: English Taxpayers

There is no reason why the English should have a vote in Scottish independence. If we want to independent of Scotland there is nothing to stop us voting in some so inclined politicos to put together an English independence bill.

If and when the Scot's decide to go their own way however, we'd damn well better get a vote on whether we want to share a currency with an independent nation. As the Eurozone have proved recently, sharing a currency while having independence doesn't work.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: English Taxpayers

Aberdeen is just a stopping off point for ships and helicopters. Of the well over 100 oil + gas companies with offices there, only 5 of them are actually Scottish. And 4 of those are tiny.

If you think that oil and gas can't be removed by ship or a pipeline that doesnt end in Scotland then you are sadly mistaken...

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Re: English Taxpayers

oh we will be getting it back... check out what the European journal of international law has to say about it.. as does international law and maritime law...

Westminster doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to that one Mr AC troll

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Re: English Taxpayers

The Darrien scheme that failed due to the Blockade of Scotland and the routes to south American by the English Navy?

Yeah.. that Darrien scheme.... and the union was brought about by that crash ... plus the Alien act making it illegal to trade with Scotland or even employ Scots in England.

The Nobles might have been mostly skint by the Darrien Scheme but the towns and Burghs were far from it.

Then we have the bribery by English Govt Agent Defoe....

And then the fact that it was actually an illegally convened Scottish parliament who passed the act here.

The people of Scotland didn't want the union....

In fact there were riots in the streets in Ayr, Glasgow,Edinburgh,Dumfries, Dunfermline, Aberdeen and other places.

Burns even wrote a poem about it called "Parcel O' Rogues"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Such_a_Parcel_of_Rogues_in_a_Nation

Also, you'll find that the Edinburgh Stock exchange didn't exist in 1706/7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Stock_Exchange

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