back to article A-level results: Before you smile at that jump-for-joy snap...

Traditionally, newspapers illustrate A-Level results day with pictures of attractive teens in mid-air. But soon it could be lank-haired, bespectacled nerds that are performing the vault of victory following news that students are flocking to tech-focused courses. Today is the day where pretty young things and their uglier, …

Page:

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Higher Apprentice

    So my firm has been taking Higher Apprentices (i.e. those out of school) for a couple of years now, and I must say they are seriously impressive. Not only do they manage a full work day, they are also doing an IT degree part time, and still finding time to be young and socialise.

    More interestingly when it comes to year end, and we sit in the management meetings calibrating everyone, it's become very obvious that in a large number of cases the Higher Apprentices are out performing the recent Graduates.

    If I had my time again (10+ years ago) I'm not sure Uni is a clear cut decision, you get a three year head start, a degree (after a little longer), huge amounts of experience *and* you get paid, with no Student Loan debt!..

    I even hear the lawyers are at it these days.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Higher Apprentice

      Is it just me or did that sound like it was taken from the testimonials page of QA or similar.

      Anon because if they can so can I.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Higher Apprentice

        Hahaha. It was me that posted the first Anon comment, I really don't work for QA or anybody else, just anon as I don't want to name my company (a global IT firm) in particular.

        OK, it's not 100% perfect, sometimes the pressure of money in pocket and living away from home at such a young age without that safe buffer of having done it at Uni is too much and there is a drop out rate, but lower than I think anybody expected at the time.

        But the fact is I've got several school leavers working for my on my project team, and I'm constantly surprised by how well they get on - it's almost that they don't know what is or isn't possible so they just crack on with it.

    2. kmac499

      Re: Higher Apprentice

      Quite right too;

      I've been involved at looking after a fair few sandwich student placements over the years and it was usually apparent within a month if the Oik was any good and had a future in IT.

      HIgher Apprenticeships offer the employer a quick way to identify talent in a real 'real world' environment and the Apprentice get's to find out if they've made an horrendously duff career choice, whilst still being young and independent enough to try a Plan 'B'.

      What we must leave open is the opportunity for a succesful apprentice to have access to 'Post Grad' style education later in their career. That way we keep open the career path to professional engineer status as well as normal promotions within an organisation.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Higher Apprentice

      Maybe something changes by age 18 but all my (15yo) sons contemporaries taking GCSE next year who have the slightest interest in computing and possess any level of imagination with basic skills in literacy and numeracy are planning to go on to university. [He attends a state comprehensive with a higher than average proportion of students on free school meals so maybe its different at private schools].

      Things weren't always like this; in the 70s when I left school only around 10% of people went on to higher education leaving lots of bright 'Higher Apprentice' types but nowadays its near 50%. I still wouldn't entirely rule out employing a young non-graduate but there would have to be a convincing explanation why they have chosen not to continue their studies and an exceptional out of school achievement record.

      I'm actually astounded the first ac found 'seriously impressive' 18 year olds - perhaps the problem is in the quality of the graduate intake and management setting a very low bar.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Higher Apprentice

        I strongly suspect I work for the same company as AC#1, because we're the only global IT company with an apprenticeship scheme of any size that's been running for more than a year or two. We've got hundreds of HAs across the UK and the scheme has been an astonishing success.

        " ...still wouldn't entirely rule out employing a young non-graduate but there would have to be a convincing explanation why they have chosen not to continue their studies and an exceptional out of school achievement record."

        The reason is simple. While their mates are at uni spending £9k a year for the privelege of reading Sedgewick and Knuth, they're working full time, earning a shade under £20k (and continuously climbing) on projects measured in the millions of pounds for FTSE100 companies. And, for bonus points, if they hang around after the 24 month apprenticeship we'll fund a degree for them too.

        Our newest intake aren't people who missed out on uni, they're all people who have actively chosen to ignore the university offering. Not one of them in our business unit's batch doesn't have an A*. We're genuinely talking guys who've turned down Imperial and Oxbridge to come work for us. The first intake, who are now some way through their undergraduate studies, are *averaging* a first, despite them studying on their own time outside of our demanding [consultancy] work hours.

        As I said, this has been an astonishing success. The business, like you, were reticent at first, and that's understandable. For decades now all we'd ever hired was new graduates or experienced hires. We wanted to.. what... hire schoolkids? It'll never work, they said.

        It has, for a variety of reasons.

        1) The quality of our apprentices is top notch. This is mainly down to the recruitment process being driven by old school techy/delivery types rather than a central HR process. This means the business get who they want, not who HR have determined to be the people they need. We get people with the right work ethic and the right persona to integrate into teams quickly.

        2) The training is excellent [disclosure: we are a QA customer]. We put every one of them through 3 months of intensive technology training (residential+all expenses paid). They come out the other side, not only familiar with the company's culture and workings, but on average far more capable than any new graduate. Graduates tend to know the theory, but sit them down in front of, say, SQL Management Studio, and they'll be lost. The graduate scheme has since been rejigged to contain similar training, with good results, but has led the business to question the cost of employing grads, which leads us nicely to...

        3) They're cheap. We've built business models around these guys that compete with our offshored models. Not as cheap of course, but competitive, and of a higher quality (and UK based). They're paid about 1/2 what a new grad is paid, and we bill them for about 2/3. Client is happy and we're even happier. They're pretty happy too, because what 18 year old doesn't want to be issued a corporate credit card and a full time wage and comprehensive training and world class work?

        4) They're commited. They sign up to five year contracts, with an out after two. They're going to be 24-25 when they leave on average, we'll have made a tidy packet, they'll have stellar CVs, a professional network, a degree and no debt. Everyone is happy. Your typical graduate comes into their first job with their five year plan already in their head, and after 24 months the attrition rate skyrockets. It's hard to justify investing in good training for someone who's already thinking about their next role.

        5) We don't treat them as worthless interns. Last week we sent an HA to Vegas to represent us at a conference with one of our biggest partners. We routinely put these guys in front of senior stakeholders, and invest a high level of trust in them to deliver, and they almost always do. They're allowed, if capable, to develop into leadership roles rapidly. It's not unusual for them to be taking the tech lead role within a scrum team within a year of joining. If they don't develop that quickly? Fine, they're only bloody nineteen. But they do so with a frightening frequency.

        It's got to the point where our graduate community is needing close management, because when requests for junior talent come in they're invariably for higher apprentices. They're outnumbered by this close-knit, highly skilled, young pool of guys (and a surprising proportion of girls) in high demand and there's resentment. Really the grads only get a look in when it's an old school client who demands a degree from everyone they buy. They just don't deliver to the same level as their younger competition, despite being more expensive and on paper more experienced. We've recalibrated the value of a degree, and our competition are following suit, but with mixed results.

        Were I to go back in time, knowing what I know now, I'd take the HA route in an instant. The top end ones should genuinely be considered alongside our best unis as career and development choices.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Higher Apprentice

          I 100% agree with all of the above.

          It's interesting how the dynamic has shifted, before the HA scheme started it has people milling around saying "what the heck are we going to do with these kids? Testing? PMO?"

          Now - a few years later, it is "What the heck are we going to do with the Grads.."

          I have a good Computer Science degree from a top Russell Group University, but if the apprentice route had been available at the time, and knowing what I know now (with the increased fees) I'd take it in a second. And I don't doubt that while I've got 10+ years head start on these guys (and girls*), I'm going to be seeing them sooner rather than later sat opposite me in senior meetings - and probably a damn sight quicker than their graduate counterparts.

          *I don't know about other projects, but on my rather large delivery programme it's nearly 50/50 boys/girls, which frankly is a very good thing to see.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Higher Apprentice

            Despite my early AC comment (15yo son etc.) if we are talking high achievers doing a Higher Apprenticeship as part of what was called a sandwich course work+degree .. as an earlier AC commented was what their firms does, its a bit different and can see a point to it.

            However I was reminded of a comments by 16yo son of friends who aged 11 accepted a scholarship to a top 10 league table private school given on the basic of his artistic talent - its not so much that he feels his own skills and interests are unappreciated by the league table obsessed school but that his fellow pupils seem to be focussed on how much they can earn and largely lack passion for their chosen specialisms, law, science medicine whatever. If this is why achieving students are choosing Higher Apprenticeships its a dreary bunch of unimaginative kids being fast tracked into organisations IMO.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Higher Apprentice

          Wow! 20k!

          It took me a year into my second graduate position to be earning that!

          And it wasn't even all my money, I was paying off a lot of bank debt.

          And still, a decade on, paying off the student loan.

          However, University to me was more than just a piece of paper saying I've been studying. It was about leaving home properly for the first time, meeting friends, gaining experiences. I grew as a person, gained confidence, I was a different person by the end that I'm not sure I would be had I stayed at home and worked locally.

          Though if I was 18 again now I'd think long and hard given the cost these days. We're almost moving to a US system, where parents save up for their kids from their birth to go to college.

          The placement students I've worked with over my career are a mixed bag. Some we jump for as soon as they graduate, others we never see again....

  2. Chazmon

    I have two degrees, went on a course recently and there were a couple of sparkies there pulling in three times what I earn. Having said that they probably work three times as hard...

    If your smart and motivated you will succeed regardless and vice versa.

    1. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
      Facepalm

      Re: "If your smart"

      Oh, come on! It's like shooting fish in a barrel...

      GJC

  3. James 51

    Every IT post I've seen advertised asked for a degree as a minimum unless it was a minimum wage entry position and then it is generaly testing or the lowest level of support.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      *every* IT post?

      Not all of them, but it's fair to say most do...

      ...until for a great deal of them, you get to the recruitment process and they don't give a monkey's. The degree 'requirement' is a corporate box-ticking construct. In my experience, hiring managers are more interested in what experience you have, and whether you've got a good head on your shoulders. University doesn't bestow either upon anyone by default.

      That's always been the case for me - and you'd do well* not to sweepingly assume that IT job holders without said degree are in the minimum wage 'testing or the lowest level of support' category. You are utterly, woefully mistaken, Sir

      * by do well, I mean not invoke an air of ignorance and elitism.

      1. James 51

        Re: *every* IT post?

        Where I live the near by universities pump out more IT graduates than there are jobs in the area. However complaining that they can’t get enough qualified* staff some companies where excluding IT graduates from their recruitment drives so they could get subsidised training and wages from local government to bring non-IT graduates into the IT sector. But to get onto that program you still had to have a degree of some sort (actually the best programmer on one team was a former accountant). There aren't that many places to look for jobs being advertised so just going through them now the only ones not asking for degrees are testing jobs but they are asking for ISEB/ISTQB. There are a few developer positions not specifying any criteria, just the language and asking for a CV so that might be a recruitment agency trying to pad their books.

        For the record I never said that you needed a degree in IT to be good at IT, I said that all the firms within several hours drive of where I live always put in a requirement for a degree in their ads. The few exceptions are things like testing or support were they’ll ask for something like A plus. Who knows, maybe non-graduates are applying and getting in but they are still asking for those degrees.

        *cheap

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: *every* IT post?

        Our experience is that most of those with nice new degrees are useless at doing the job until they have 'swept the floor' for at least three years. After that time they begin to realise that they don't know it all and then start learning.

        I always remember what we were told at my graduation in the very early 60s 'your degree shows you are capable of learning some engineering - now go and finish learning and when you have done that put it into practice'. It is something I have tried to do since then, even returning from retirement to help out.

        1. James 51

          Re: *every* IT post?

          three years is maybe a bit much. Use to help train new starts and always told them it would be at least a year before they started to work independantly of their mentor.

        2. Fink-Nottle

          Re: *every* IT post?

          > After that time they begin to realise that they don't know it all and then start learning.

          That's been our experience with graduates too. On the other hand, school leavers have the 50% pass mark syndrome - it takes them a while to realise that in the real world anything less than 100% effort is unacceptable.

    2. J.G.Harston Silver badge

      A *recent* degree, *and* three years' commercial experience in the last two years.

      1. James 51

        I saw an ad in 2013 asking for three years experience with server 2012 once.

    3. streaky

      They advertise like that, but you'll find if you have relevant commercial experience you'll get hired regardless. I would be very careful not to use that as an excuse if you can prove you have the experience/ability because many companies don't know what the hell they want until they meet the candidates.

      On a more general software jobs note; never sign a contract that bars you from open source when you're not working or the company claims ownership of code you do away from work - this stuff can be terminal to your career.

      1. qwarty

        Good contract advice.

  4. AMBxx Silver badge
    Alert

    Surely some mistake

    Is this the only story about A Levels that doesn't have a picture of young girls in low cut tops?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Surely some mistake

      The Daily Mail picture featured 7 girls, two apparently en-route to modelling assignments and one blonde with arm round a black guy presumably so they could tick both gender and racial equality boxes at a stroke.

  5. dotdavid

    Tracy Ewen, managing director at the finance firm IGF, said: "As we rise up out of the downturn, businesses are now facing a new concern: finding skilled staff."

    Er, no. The concerns of businesses have always actually been finding skilled staff at a low price.

    It's very hard to not find skilled staff if you're willing to pay the going rate for them, and of course the going rate is higher if supply is limited. Any business bleating on about a skills shortage is simply trying to increase supply so that rate can remain the same or decrease.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Holmes

      The talk of the remunerated state employee for whom money grows on trees.

      The reverse of that position is: if you cannot sell the goods at the price needed to pay your high-salaried employees (and pay your high taxes to boot and throw off a profit for, you know, "justification of existence"), then you are rolling towards the "cessation of activities" terminal activity node.

      Cheap stuff from India? Yes we can.

      1. dotdavid

        Re: The talk of the remunerated state employee for whom money grows on trees.

        Not sure whether you're accusing me of being this "remunerated state employee" or not. My point isn't that businesses should pay outrageous salaries regardless of market conditions - my point is that businesses shouldn't claim there's a skills shortage when there isn't one.

        Skills shortages are self-correcting to some extent. If you can't get staff for the price you want you have to pay more. If you pay more, people are attracted into that industry and so the supply of suitably-skilled staff increases.

        Regarding your point - of course if these businesses are reaching the "cessation of activities" terminal activity node there will be a glut of recently-made-redundant people with certain skills on the employment market, and therefore in a simple market the price of their labour would also decrease. Still no skills shortage in that case.

        1. oomonkey

          Re: The talk of the remunerated state employee for whom money grows on trees.

          What is the "going rate"? Perhaps there is a skills shortage in certain skills. We advertise @ £70K + bens outside London and still get no applicants perhaps that's not the going rate, although it's close on 3 times average earnings so it's definitely not a low price. Any more and as the other post says you may as well pack up and go home.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @dotdavid

      I too am tired of the nonsense supposed business leaders spout whenever there's a journalist in earshot. I have more than one acquaintance who's ended up long term unemployed despite possessing a PhD in the hard sciences (highly relevant to industry) from a top university, yet of course we're to believe there's this seemingly perpetual skills shortage...

      1. dotdavid

        Re: @dotdavid

        Making an educated guess, oomonkey and AC may have two sides of the same problem in that labour isn't really that mobile. The skills have to be in the same area as the jobs by and large, because while you do get people that are willing to move to where the jobs are there are more people with the skills that would much prefer to stay where they currently live, as there are obviously other motivations for human behaviour than just salary (near friends and family, prettier scenery, cheaper beer - whatever really) and sometimes even a significantly higher salary can't tempt enough people with skills to a certain area.

        I guess businesses could move but again they don't or can't for various reasons. Still not a skills shortage though, although granted you could call it a skills shortage in the local area...

        1. oomonkey

          Re: @dotdavid

          Given the median software architect salary is £51K http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Job=Software_Architect/Salary; Software Engineer £40,527 and this http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-average-salary-26500-figures-3002995 article lists median salaries for other professions I don't think IT people are paid a "low price"

          If it's not a skills shortage boosting salaries of software people up compared to other professions what is it?

          1. dotdavid

            Re: @dotdavid

            If it's not a skills shortage boosting salaries of software people up compared to other professions what is it?

            I think you're saying shortage where I'm just saying it's simple supply and demand. If you are thinking in terms of there being an "ideal" salary for a specific job, then yeah if the salary is higher than that you could claim there's a supply shortage. But it could be that you're just undervaluing the role compared to how the market is valuing it.

            High salaries should be encouraging people to train to enter the market. If this isn't happening I would suggest the message of high salaries isn't getting across. Perhaps rather than "skills shortage" the phrase used by the companies that think they have a problem should be "opportunities to make a shedload of cash". Or maybe prospective IT professionals can make similar amounts doing something easier and/or more interesting to them, in which case if anything the roles companies are finding it difficult to fill will probably have to cost even more in salary and benefits to attract the right applicants.

  6. disgruntled yank

    IT

    Are these apprentices coding and administering systems, or are they swapping boards and clearing paper jams. I have worked with many persons, young and not, who have held down IT jobs without a degree. Their work varied at least as much as the work of those with degrees.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: IT

      In our case they are doing everything. Application development, database stuff, front end report writing, test executions allsorts!

  7. jzlondon

    These days going to university is synonymous with taking a three year course in Hair Care (with Powerpoint) at the University of North-West Runcorn. An apprenticeship is definitely better than that.

    But is an apprenticeship better than a physics or maths degree at Bristol or Sheffield? No. Not in a month of Sundays.

    The problem is that the concept of a degree has been watered down.

    1. Caesarius
      Headmaster

      Re: concept of a degree has been watered down

      Decades ago, the idea was that undergraduates studied what interested them, and that their supervisor nudged some of their activities to maintain sanity. I have a degree in engineering, but that kind of subject requires so much specific teaching that there is hardly any room for striking out on your own. So really my course should not have been called a degree. It was exactly what I wanted, but not really a degree in the old sense.

      Naturally, the polytechnics abandoned their title because they clearly offered the same teaching as universities.

      And so now we have more and more apprentice schemes. That strikes me as always having been a good idea. It is a great pity, however, that companies need to tempt apprentices with the opportunity of getting what is called a degree: they are keeping degrees watered down.

      (Icon for subject matter as much as for my pedantry.)

    2. Caesarius
      IT Angle

      Re: a three year course in Hair Care

      Someone once challenged a history undergraduate to show that his degree was useful. Whereas the study of history does benefit society (1), I chose to point out that "useful" studies should earn that description by improving society's quality of life, like having the opportunity of studying e.g. history.

      But a degree in hair care is just taking the mick.

      (1) but a history degere is probably less useful in IT

  8. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

    IT interest does seem to be on the rise

    We are attracting WAY more students in the last few years in our CS programme. I haven't got the latest figures, but it looks we will be getting about 60% more student than last year, and last year was about 25% above the year before. About 30% of our new students are from abroad, which has also meant more girls enroll, which is a good thing too, not just because we then have more role-models which could attract more Dutch girls (who traditionally do not choose science, and certainly not CS), but also because many of them are highly motivated and perform well.

  9. jason 7

    Maybe...

    ...learn some social skills first?

    Not being funny there but I've found in IT, being able to properly communicate and deal with non IT people in a human to human manner really can set you apart from the rest.

    1. Tim Jenkins

      Re: Maybe...

      Just an ability to communicate would be nice, preferably in full, coherent sentences without a rising inflection. Also, how about learning the difference in style, grammar and format between a business-related email and a text to a mate?

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Maybe...

      On the other hand, we have a sandwich year student at the moment, from a shit uni. Done 2 years of a Computer Science degree. Can't program, can't write SQL, doesn't want to learn. Happy to swan around creating excel sheets with 3d graphs, and talk bollocks to the most senior people they can find to ingratiate themselves. Computer Science my arse. It's obviously a degree in smarm, cockyness, 3d bar charts and 'networking' (of the wrong kind). Give me a spotty, greasy, fat, socially inadequate geek who can actually do something constructive please. Computers will always need to be programmed, and 'social skills' is not a programming language I've heard of. We already have plenty of people who can spout management platitudes thanks.

      1. jason 7

        Re: Maybe...

        Well there are two types of IT people really.

        You have those that live and die AS/400 etc. and never have to talk to another human being from their basement office. Let them carry on ug-ughing and grunting to themselves and doing their magic.

        Then you have those that actually have to meet a human being and relate to them in some way. Support, relationship management etc.

        It's not all about being able to BS your way to the top, sure there will be some that do that (how do most get to the top these days..it ain't through hard work) but being able to sit and look people in the eyes, show empathy, gain their trust and confidence can help enormously.

        Takes all-sorts but being an IT guy that normal people can do business with means you'll always be busy. Plus these kind of skills don't just help in the workplace either...

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Maybe...

      "Maybe...learn some social skills first? Not being funny there but I've found in IT, being able to properly communicate and deal with non IT people in a human to human manner really can set you apart from the rest."

      In my experience, Asperger's Syndrome is incredibly common in the IT industry (in fact, it probably contributes to being a good programmer), which has some socially problematic symptoms to the point it's a recognised disability. I've known some absolutely excellent programmers, and all of them were textbook severe Asperger's cases, but you wouldn't let them be in a meeting with non-technical staff on their own.

      That said, it is depressing the number of people who can't write coherent, well-structured documents/e-mails...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Maybe...

        I've worked with a lot of developers UK and USA in 30 years and not seen much evidence of this at all, always thought its a Hollywood cliché like the overweight hacker. Seems you and I have been swimming in different pools.

        Once worked alongside a textbook Aspergers type but he wasn't a great programmer - for what its worth he went on to GCHQ where seemed more at home than in the business environment.

  10. Anomalous Cowshed

    Bad news for the AMMU (Association of Mickey Mouse Universities)

    News that A-level students were opting for apprenticeships in IT was greeted with scorn by the Chancellor of Michael M. Ouse University, Champagne, Indiana.

    "Our Media Studies MA and pre-Doctorate degree course is the best in the world and applications are up 50% over 2013, in spite of a 30% rise in fees. The syllabus, which keeps changing to keep up with sociological and technological developments is unique and is constantly being emulated by the other members of the A.M.M.U. worldwide."

    YEAR 1 SYLLABUS:

    Core courses

    - General Facebook studies

    - Analysing Facebook posts

    - Advanced (multimedia) posting on Facebook

    - How to make the most of your/somebody else's iphone

    - Paper shuffling for beginners

    Optional courses

    - An introduction to farting apps and why they are important

    - Google+ studies

    - An introduction to Blue Ray Recorder (formerly VCR) programming

    - An introduction to iphone Apps

    - Intermediate paper shuffling

    Not Recommended but available on request:

    - Foundation Course in Common Sense

    - Developing a realistic attitude of one's job opportunities upon completing this course (includes yoga and meditation)

    - Setting the clock on any oven

    YEAR 2 AVAILABLE ON DEMAND

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Bad news for the AMMU (Association of Mickey Mouse Universities)

      That's the cynical reason behind the free online courses from MIT/Stanford/etc

      Who would you hire, somebody that had contributed to a bunch of opensource projects, had some apps on the app store and completed a set of MIT/Stanford CS courses on their own - or an ICT graduate from the Noweheresville State

      So why would you run up a 50K student dept going to Noweheresville State - returning IVY league to its original monopoly position.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Bad news for the AMMU (Association of Mickey Mouse Universities)

        Come on how many people have you encountered contributing code into an open source project ... yeah sure there must be one or two kids around with no interest in football or maths or science or video games or girls/boys who spend their teenage years hunched over a keyboard hacking but real world its as likely and useful as finding a dog that can dance.

        1. DropBear
          Facepalm

          Re: Bad news for the AMMU (Association of Mickey Mouse Universities)

          Well, yes. Going by the general tone of comments every time similar issues are discussed, unless you've written half of the code of Firefox yourself (and at least three of the top ten apps in the app store) you're not even to be considered for hire as a janitor in an IT business. Riiiight...

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Bad news for the AMMU (Association of Mickey Mouse Universities)

            When I were a lad the only way you could get experience on a computer (other than a ZX81) was to go to university or get hired by someone like ICL. Now I can hire kids with experience on industrial grade OS/ database/ languages that they gained in their bedroom.

            They can also prove it to me by showing actual code in the world rather than a pointless certificate from nowhere I have heard of.

  11. Panicnow

    40 years ago I got 2Es and 2Cs, I can demonstrate I'm not stupid, nor lazy. So it is obviously the crap teachers I had!

  12. Panicnow

    Coding School

    I've just founded a TV school where the student make real TV in real time for broadcast on real deadline, budgets and quality. They pay for the professional mentors, we get free TV programmes

    Anyone fancy setting up a dept to do the same for coders. ( and get some code written for free at the same time!)

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon