back to article Cracking copyright law: How a simian selfie stunt could make a monkey out of Wikipedia

That so-called Macaca nigra monkey selfie isn’t in the public domain, no matter what Wikipedia wants you to think. In fact, the encyclopedia's stance on the matter could backfire and hit it in the pocket. A photo sold by British snapper David Slater since 2011 hit the headlines again this month when Wikipedia refused to …

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  1. JeffyPoooh
    Pint

    Recent news on Page 2

    The fact that the Copyright Office has refused to register the image, for the same reasons and logic Wiki uses, is good ammunition for a case.

    Me thinks photographers get too much copyright for what is often 1/60s work.

    1. Steve Crook

      Re: Recent news on Page 2

      With increasingly automatic cameras it might be difficult to justify copyright on grounds of creative input, but you can always argue intention.

      In this case the photographer did have the idea to give the simian the camera to get it to take a selfie, switched the camera on and presumably had to direct the simian's finger to the shutter release to get it to take a picture of it's face and not its genitals...

      So I think he has a claim.

      As for the last remark. Pooh.

      1. Matt in Sydney

        Re: Recent news on Page 2

        The test should be :

        If I was given the camera by a professional photographer, and I took my own selfie, would *I* own the rights to it, even though this was the intent of the photographer ?

        In my opinion I would, however I am a natural person. The photographer may argue that if not taken by a natural person, he at least has a claim to "derivative" works. All that would be required is a little cropping or resizing and the derivative work is protected ? The simian in question is unlikely to protest, so squatter's rights for the work could be claimed as there is no true owner ?

        Another thing to consider is any payment of fees by a professional photographer and the expectation that works created could be used for commercial purposes in return.

        In the first instance, even though it supports provenance, it was a mistake to admit that this was a selfie, and *not taken* by the photographer, even vicariously.

        1. Tom 7

          Re: Recent news on Page 2

          If I take a picture of you with your camera after you asked me to take a picture of it I still own the copyright to the said picture. You still own the copyright of a picture you took of me illegally.

          The monkey owns the copyright to the picture not the camera owner, or perhaps the owner of the monkey?

          1. h4rm0ny

            Re: Recent news on Page 2

            >>"If I take a picture of you with your camera after you asked me"

            As others have said earlier, in this case you have intent to take a picture. An animal that merely triggers the shutter does not.

            On a separate note, Wikipedia's page on this dispute is tremendously smug about the whole thing and explaining in a faux-objective way why they're in the right. Extremely obnoxious.

          2. Richard Plinston

            Re: Recent news on Page 2

            > If I take a picture of you with your camera after you asked me to take a picture of it I still own the copyright to the said picture.

            No you don't. You would be acting as an agent under direction by the person asking you. If you don't like the idea of being a mere agent then refuse to take the picture. If you want to own copyright to a photo then use your own camera.

            > You still own the copyright of a picture you took of me illegally.

            If you are in a public place then taking a photo of you is not illegal.

            The monkey owns the copyright to the picture not the camera owner, or perhaps the owner of the monkey?

        2. The First Dave

          Re: Recent news on Page 2

          To my mind, the number one question should always be: "whose camera was it?" If I own the camera, then I own what's inside it, unless I was specifically hired to take those photo's.

          This quite neatly covers the "wildlife camera trap" issue,

          it covers the "photographer's assistant" issue,

          it covers the "random stranger taking a photo - at my request - of me in front of a tourist landmark"

          That may not be how the law does the test, but fundamentally, Wiki is wrong to steal the work of a professional, and doubly wrong to make a big deal over it.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Recent news on Page 2

        The selfie was rather an accident than a guided snap, one of a whole series the ape took of itself. As I recall the circumstances the camera owner (Slater) did not exercise sufficient control to claim copyright. Of course, Orlowski and co. are free to disagree. We shall see what the court says.

      3. Jeff Green

        Re: Recent news on Page 2

        Except according to the photographer he didn't give the camera to the monkey, it stole it.

    2. h4rm0ny
      Facepalm

      Re: Recent news on Page 2

      >>"Me thinks photographers get too much copyright for what is often 1/60s work."

      I'll re-post my response from last time someone made this idiotic comment on here: I was once paid £200 for an hours work. That's quite a good rate for an hour. But then of course I was paid that because I had years of familiarity with the software, extensive programming experience, understanding of what they wanted to achieve. All things that actually enabled me to do that hours work. But no, by this reasoning it doesn't matter - only the length of time it took me on that specific instance.

      1/60th of a second? There's no way photographers should be paid anything at all! Even paying them £1 for that photo would equate to over £200,000 per hour rate! Preposterous - they're having a laugh.

      If they want to get paid more, they should invent a slower shutter, work-shy little shysters!

      1. SleepyJohn

        Re: Recent news on Page 2 - the Knowledge Economy

        Or as the computer engineer wrote when asked to justify his charge of $500 for chalking a cross on a component with the instruction "replace this" -

        - for chalking cross on item -- $00.01

        - for knowing which item to chalk it on -- $499.99

        1. Fink-Nottle

          Re: Recent news on Page 2 - the Knowledge Economy

          Not really the same thing. In your example, The engineer is only paid once for exercising his talent. Copyright means that for the rest of his life the engineer gets paid every time someone else chalks a cross on a faulty part.

      2. JeffyPoooh
        Pint

        Re: Recent news on Page 2

        The problem with your counter argument isn't that it's no good. It's that it's TOO good.

        If the man with the monkeys had randomly tripped over a root, spun around and accidentally captured an airplane on fire passing overhead, he would still have a copyright claim. No intent, perhaps no effort if it happened in his backyard. .: Creative intent and hours of prep are interesting, but lack of them doesn't have anything to due with the validity of a copyright claim.

        So the rules have been set based on things that are easier to measure. Which ape pressed the button? Them's the rules. If photographers want to lobby Congress or Parliament or Berne to change the rules, so that Copyrights depend on the things you mention, go ahead. Fill out this form IN ADVANCE with your creative intent. Fill out this expense and travel report to document your effort.

        The paradoxes that arise are a natural result of drawing a thin line in a continuum. No avoiding them, just choose whatever ones you want.

        1. h4rm0ny

          Re: Recent news on Page 2

          >>"If the man with the monkeys had randomly tripped over a root, spun around and accidentally captured an airplane on fire passing overhead, he would still have a copyright claim."

          In this case, the photographer gets the copyright because there is no other responsible party and the effort to produce it such as it was, is still his. In the case of the monkey photo, there is still no other responsible party and the effort such as it was, is still his. He bought the equipment, he set it up, he spent the time getting the monkeys used to his presence, he travelled around the world to photograph them. There's no contradiction between the aeroplane and monkey cases. The monkey has no intent or creative contribution anymore than if he had set up a system where the wind in the trees moved a branch to take the photograph. Plane or monkey, the creative effort is the photographers and there is no other responsible party.

        2. the spectacularly refined chap

          Re: Recent news on Page 2

          So the rules have been set based on things that are easier to measure. Which ape pressed the button? Them's the rules.

          Cite me this mystical rule.

          If you had bothered to read the article you are commenting on you would have seen references to established case law showing that your interpretation is wrong.

          Once again another Reg commentard who is completely unable to distinguish between what he wants to be the case and what really is the case.

    3. h4rm0ny

      Re: Recent news on Page 2

      Oh and fallacious though your reasoning is anyway, your facts are also wrong. That's not 1/60th of a seconds work. As well as setting up the camera and settings, once the photo is taken, there's the post-work done on the photographs. Even the selection process of which photo to use. I guarantee you that the photo we have seen is the product of a fair bit of skilled work post taking. Things that also contribute to its copyrightable nature.

    4. Kiwi

      Re: Recent news on Page 2 @JeffyPoooh

      For a start, there's a hell of a lot more than the 1/60 sec involved.

      As a plumber friend of mine says, and as another poster has already basically covered, it's not the press of the button you're paying for but the knowledge behind it.

      1. P. Lee

        Re: Recent news on Page 2 @JeffyPoooh

        > you're paying for but the knowledge behind it.

        Except that the photographer has already admitted the selfie was an accident.

        If I give my camera to someone who takes a picture of themselves with it, can I claim copyright? If I'm a photo pro and set up my friend's camera for his wedding, can I then license the photos taken with that camera?

        Or are we just saying that copyright goes to the nearest human controller? In that case, what if a bystander yells, "yoohoo! over here!" Who is the controller then?

        Its a difficult case, and hard cases make bad law.

    5. Rob Crawford

      Re: Recent news on Page 2

      Hmmm I think you probably have never done anything that would justify the time taken, therefore you are simply jealous.

  2. Lamb0
    Holmes

    Did the monkey learn?

    The "British snapper" David Slater would normally have an unquestioned title to the copyright. However, as the stories I've read are told; the monkey retained possession of the camera for some time and took MANY pictures. Tilted, fuzzy, awkward, and otherwise, of itself and the surrounding environment. I'm unaware of any other pictures release from that series other than the "selfie". If the progression of images might show that the monkey actually learned, (even in a limited fashion), the proper distance an fashion to gather a proper "selfie" and/or other images; then SHE - NOT the "British snapper" David Slater is the true photographer and deserving of the actual copyright. A timeline of the camera's images delineating both "British snapper" David Slater's pictures and the monkey's that day might provide further enlightenment.

    Perhaps the monkey is tired of recreating Shakespearean plays and the "British snapper" David Slater has appropriated other images of hers for his own use - maybe even with her tacit permission as a fellow nature photographer. ;-)

    The monkey's "selfie" was extraordinarily well done and makes Jimmy Wales' version look like it was taken by an ugly stupid naked ape trying to copy a master artificer of imagery!

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I'm puzzled by this article

    It leaves the impression that Slater has rights to the monkey selfie. The US Copyright Office makes it clear that he does not, at least in the US. The fact that the monkey does not either just means the selfie isn't copyrightable. It really is that simple.

    1. VinceH

      Re: I'm puzzled by this article

      "The fact that the monkey does not either just means the selfie isn't copyrightable. It really is that simple."

      Well that sorts out any issue of whether or not that Jimmy Wales selfie can be copyrighted.

    2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: I'm puzzled by this article

      "The US Copyright Office makes it clear that he does not, at least in the US. "

      Unless, of course, as is the opion expressed in the article, that the photo may well be copyright under UK law, in which according the Berne Convention, all countries who are signatories, including the US, must respect that copyright.

      Since it's currently in dispute and a competent authority, ie a court of law, has not pronounced yet, using the opinion of the US Copyright Office, who are not competent to make that decision, as a ruling is risking a lot in terms of potential damages down the line.

    3. Andrew Orlowski (Written by Reg staff)

      Re: I'm puzzled by this article

      It leaves the impression that Slater has rights to the monkey selfie.

      Oh dear. RTFA?

      1. Oninoshiko

        Re: I'm puzzled by this article

        You might consider RTFA for Shaun Nichols' fine article, Mr. Orlowski, or read the opinion of the US copyright office (which is where this is likely to be fought).

        The US Copyright Office is quite clear that he does not. Your wishes have no bearing on the matter.

        1. Asylum Sam

          Re: I'm puzzled by this article

          ....opinion of the US copyright office (which is where this is likely to be fought).....

          Not necessarily, he could have the copyright claim validated in the UK, which seems to lean in his favour, a ruling which the US would then be forced to uphold via the agreement.

        2. Richard Plinston

          Re: I'm puzzled by this article

          > The US Copyright Office is quite clear that he does not. Your wishes have no bearing on the matter.

          Your assertion is incorrect. The US Copyright Office refused an application to register the copyright because it is in dispute and registering it would preempt any court case. They do not say that Slater does not own copyright, only that they reject his application.

          1. hlang

            Re: I'm puzzled by this article

            Actually, you are quite wrong. The US Copyright Office hasn't refused any application. All they've done is make their position known and clear. If this ends up in court, the court could disagree with the Copyright Office and mandate a change. If people disagree on how Copyrights are being handled in the United States, lawmakers can update, clarify, and modify the law... which is how the system is supposed to function. But as it stands now, this photograph cannot be copyrighted.

            "The U.S. Copyright Office will register an original work of authorship, provided that the work was created by a human being.

            The Office will not register works produced by nature, animals, or plants.

            Examples:

            A photograph taken by a monkey."

  4. Chris Miller

    Lots of wildlife photos these days are taken with camera traps. I assume no-one would dispute that the person setting up the equipment would have copyright in such images, even though the animal triggers the shutter itself (by its presence) ... but IANAL.

    1. Charles 9

      The trick here is that it's a photo TRAP, meaning the photo was taken basically on a direction of the photographer (take the picture when an animal crosses this point). This makes it a human-directed picture and thus copyrightable.

      In the monkey picture, as far as we know, the monkey took spontaneous photos without any human direction. Sort of like a dog knocking over a paint pot and the contents splatting on a canvas.

      1. Mark 65

        Except the photographer would have chosen the settings to suit the conditions. Presumably something like multi shot, matrix metering, certain aperture and high enough ISO to get non-blurred shots. He likely also chose the focal length - whether that be a zoom setting or a suitable prime lens. In that case he has more than contributed enough to claim copyright over the shot unless of course you are arguing that the simian did the above?

    2. croc

      Some acronyms just should not be used.... I ANAL is one. (However, it might make a good title for a psycho-sexual thriller.)

    3. croc
      Trollface

      Totally Off Topic...

      Some acronyms just should NOT be used... Such as I ANAL. Though it could be a good title for a psycho-sexual thriller... I ANAL, by Ian' A. Ger Bil.

  5. Don Jefe

    How does the length of time involved in a given action determine the value of the end result of the action? If something takes a long time that could just as easily be caused by stupid as it could be by Goldbergian tactics. If we apply your logic to other things then one could argue that Human babies resulting from premature ejaculation don't count as people and can therefore be owned like any other property but a baby resulting from 500ml of bourbon and hours of a couple going at it hard enough to lose weight is 'more Human' and can't qualify as property.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I can get you onto Scunthorpe's Got Talent, honest...

      If we took the line of JeffyPoooh (the first poster in this thread who suggested the work creditable in taking a photograph should only be considered the 1/60 of a second the shutter was open), the only relevant aspect here would be arguably the length of time the guy took to, er.... shoot his load.

      Conversely, one may argue that the effort counted should extend the time beyond the act itself to include everything involved in setting it up (e.g. buying nice-looking clothes, time taken to visit a nightclub, identify the laydee you wish to, er... shag (sorry, my euphemism-generator got bored and went home), buy her drinks, convince her that you're not the sleazy, desparate git you appear to be and you really are Simon Cowell's brother and can get her on the final of Britain's Got Talent if she goes to bed with you, etc. etc.

      Some may argue that in this case, the end result (i.e. babby being formed) was not intentional, but rather a result of your drunkenness convincing you that foregoing condom usage was a sensible idea, etc. etc.

      At any rate, if you're in (e.g.) a healthy married relationship, this will probably take less time to set up, so by the above logic, the resultant baby will be *less valuable*.

      Yeah, I'm posting this anonymously. That's a load of f****d up drivel when you look at it. :-(

    2. JeffyPoooh
      Pint

      @DJ

      An excellent argument, and funny. Here's another one...

      Monkey man lost his camera. He dropped it along the trail somewhere. Next day he finds it full of monkey selfies. Copyright?

      FUNDAMENTALLY: When humans draw thin lines in a continuum, you must expect paradoxes to arise.

      The true solution is a gradient of copyright terms based on the sorts of measures mentioned. In this example, maybe a 6 month copyright under the Lucky Break Million Monkey clause.

      PS: Compliments to the chef for reinstating top post. Controversial and unpopular .NE. wrong and... .NE. against post policies. Thanks.

      1. Don Jefe
        Thumb Up

        Re: @DJ

        I've actually thought about your notion of some sort of gradient/curve for copyright for the last day or so (something similar never crossed my mind before). I actually like the overall idea. In fact, I like it a lot.

        Without getting into the muddy trenches, the big concern I see is that in the binary 'copyright/non-copyright' system we currently have the abuses are just overtly obscene. I'm a huge fan of semantic debate and argument, but the fools currently mucking up copyright for everyone have been able to do so when there are only two possible outcomes to any argument.

        If it wasn't so detrimental to the general consumer it would be hilarious, but it really is shit. My concern is that debates rage for years over a single point, a curve introduces a lot of new points that gum up the works even more. The idea is certainly interesting though!

  6. Malcolm Weir Silver badge

    There's a bogus claim that doesn't appear to fit with the facts of the case.

    The issues of originality are basically:

    (i) specialities of angle of shot, light and shade, exposure and effects achieved with filters, developing techniques and so on; (ii) the creation of the scene to be photographed; (iii) being in the right place at the right time.

    Slater didn't set up the shot, the lighting, etc. Slater didn't create the scene to be photographed. And finally Slater wasn't in the right place at the right time: he wasn't actually there at all.

    Of course, if he'd set up the shot with a "photo trap" type system, then his absence wouldn't matter, but what even he agrees happened was that he just left the equipment while he wandered off, and the monkey did the rest; critically, he didn't arrange for the monkey to be able to get the camera, he just left the thing alone while he did something else.

    Now, had he been smart about this, he'd have ONLY released images that he had post-processed in some way (thereby adding his creativity), but that of course reduces the "authenticity" (and thus the value) of the shot.

    The fundamental flaw here is that by promoting the shot as a selfie, he's explicitly admitting that he didn't take the shot. Given he didn't take the shot, it's a desperate stretch to claim that Berne automatically gives him copyright; he wasn't the creator.

    Sure, you could argue that he was instrumental in creating the shot, because he set up the camera and collected the results. But under that thinking, you'd have to grant a copyright involvement to the FedEx driver who delivered the camera to you...

    Slater doesn’t fulfill every single criterion – but then he doesn’t have to. He has to meet enough. As Tierney explains:

    1. MacGyver

      Bees making honey.

      I'll do you one better, one cannot copyright something occurring naturally in/from nature, (a rock, the tree, honey). Therefore unless we are now adding monkeys to our special classification that we have put ourselves in (separate from nature), this is basically the same thing as a bee making honey or a crow using a nail to open a nut. No copyright.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Andrew

    Thank you for the analysis.

    Out of interest, has Mr. Slater registered his work in the UK IPO?

    Also, did Wikipedia ever get hold of the original photo (presumably the RAW file), or of a copy? In the latter case, would not the copy be considered a derivative work, itself subject to copyright even if the original was in the public domain?

    1. graeme leggett Silver badge

      Re: Andrew

      As Andrew Orlowski (and the UK IPO) writes "copyright is an automatic right". It needs no registration in the UK. The IPO doesn't record copyright, it handles the registration of Trademarks, Registered designs and Patents.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Andrew

        Graeme, thank you for the clarification. I realise that you do not *need* to register your work, but it does make pursuing any claims a lot easier if you do, which is why many countries have a copyright registration office. I did not know this wasn't the case in the UK.

        1. Don Jefe

          Re: Andrew

          For individuals, including creative professionals and very small companies, there is zero real advantage in filing for copyright for their individual works. It's a different thing for brands and products where you want to be sure nobody else in your space has a brand or product that could be confused with yours. In those cases official registration of copyright is a great convenience as it serves as a centralized clearinghouse of sorts that helps protect you against allegations of infringement. Take my word for it, having some hillbilly come out of left field and sue you for 'stealing his products name' sucks.

          Beyond that however, you quickly get into math where the costs of protecting your property exceeds the value of the property. No matter the country, the agencies responsible for granting and organizing copyright are not active participants in protecting that copyright. It's 100% on you to be on the lookout for those infringing and to pursue legal action against them.

          As you might imagine, that's an outrageously expensive prospect that grows continuously more expensive as time passes. It's kind of like hiring Congolese mercenaries to guard your strawberry patch. It's extreme overkill that requires enormous resources to maintain. That's why copyright is automatically given to the original creator. It's there if you need it, but not only will most creatives never have a need to enforce their rights, by the time it's all said and done any such enforcement is likely to result in a break even situation (or even a losing situation).

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Andrew

            Hi DJ. While I do not disagree with your analysis, it does go against the advice I was given (many) years ago while I was an expat in France. Back there and then, it was common for works such as books, articles, theses, and software source code (!) to be registered at the copyright office. It costed next to nothing and it actually helped prevent (and in the extreme, settle) plagiarism, as well as people taking your code and claiming it to be theirs (source code distribution was a lot more common back then).

            You are totally correct about the cost/benefit ratio and the expense of taking enforcement action as an individual, but in my experience--long ago and in a different country--there was the non-insignificant benefit of dissuasion if you made it known that you had deposited a copy of your work with the copyright office.

            Hence my asking.

    2. Yes Me Silver badge
      Headmaster

      Derivative work

      A derivative work is a version that has been *changed* in some way, and the person who makes the changes can claim copyright in the changes, but not in the derivative work as a whole. When you licence your next novel, make sure you forbid derivative works as a condition of the licence.

  8. Martin-73 Silver badge

    It really doesn't matter

    who wins, so far as wikipedia's concerned, they've lost already. MANY people are now not going to donate again, and I'm certainly not going to be donating my time to (what in my case are usually minor) edits of their 'free' (read: stolen in this case) encyclopedia.

    Also, Jimmy Wales is a cock

    1. FartingHippo
      Thumb Up

      Re: It really doesn't matter

      +1 for the last sentence, although I'd add "arrogant and self-important".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Thumb Up

        Re: It really doesn't matter

        Seconded.

        1. VinceH

          Re: It really doesn't matter

          I'd say thirded, but I think it needs to be said in an Irish accent: Turded. It just seems appropriate, somehow.

    2. Adam Inistrator

      Re: It really doesn't matter

      You are projecting. Also you are an ankle-biter.

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