back to article Jony Ive: Flattered by rivals' designs? Nah, its 'theft'

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as the saying goes, but Apple’s design guru and very precious genius Sir Jony Ive doesn’t see it that way - he reckons its more like robbery. The knighted creator of all things i-related was asked by an audience member at Vanity Fair’s New Establishment Summit in San Fran, if …

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  1. returnmyjedi

    Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

    And similar sentiments. He must reeling in how shamelessly Nokia ripped off the colourful design of the iPhone 5C, Google for nicking the flat design of iOS 7 and the LG Prada for so cheekily travelling back in time and pilfering the original iPhone's touch screen. A pox on them!

    1. Tim Roberts 1

      Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

      well said!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

      He has a point.

      Yet anyone in business will tell you that to succeed you have to be two steps ahead of the opposition and competition. If you start playing catch up you inevitably lose.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        If you start playing catch up you inevitably lose.

        Oh here we go with the anti-Microsoft posts.

        Leave the underdog alone.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Flat" design

          is simply going back to the basics. Everything was flat, until the CPU/GPU power existed to give a UI a faux 3D look, and eventually that become all the rage just because. But just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. Ive thinks you should not, so when he got his hands on the UI he changed that. With his minimalist philosophy it is easy to see why he'd think that way.

          Maybe flat design will become all the rage as everyone goes retro and then someone will go back to a 3D design as "new" again. Sort of like fashion trends like skirt lengths going up and down over the years. Stuff like the depth of a UI is a personal preference, not something for which there is one obvious "right" answer.

          1. Daniel B.

            Re: "Flat" design

            Stuff like the depth of a UI is a personal preference, not something for which there is one obvious "right" answer.

            Which is why you should give users the choice of one or the other. I'm miffed that Yosemite is going to foist the "retro" flat Dock on us, and AFAIK there's no way to choose the 3D look.

          2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

            Re: "Flat" design

            @Doug S

            $deity I hope skeumorphism stays a dead fashion. What an 80s-class trainwreck that was. "Creativity" my chrome-plated ASCII!

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: "Flat" design

              >$deity I hope skeumorphism stays a dead fashion.

              Well, it is often used as a 'stepping stone'* to introduce people to software, e.g program 'windows' are like papers on a desk.

              I can see us having skeumorphic icons for Play, Mail, Paintbrush etc for some time yet.

              *Even our language is skeumorphc, since we borrow words used for real objects to describe more abstract concepts.

          3. Philip Lewis

            Re: "Flat" design

            "Maybe flat design will become all the rage "

            ... too late :(

            1. Philip Lewis

              Re: "Flat" design

              Wow, down voted for terse, 2 word observation and an emoticon.

              In the name of Apple inspired minimalism, I am gunning for down votes for a one word post sans smiley - stay tuned.

          4. Zolko Silver badge

            Re: "Flat" design

            "Everything was flat, until the CPU/GPU power existed to give a UI a faux 3D look"

            no, it all begun with MacOS System 8, when the window borders and UI buttons took that 3D shape. Before that, with System 7, it was all flat. And there where no GPUs then, hey, some CPUs didn't even have the math coprocessor. You're confusing with 3D CAD, but on UIs it's only pixmaps, no GPUs needed. I even remember having installed a System 7 "extension" giving my System 7 a System 8-ish look.

            it was 1995 (or 1997 ?)

            Or go back to windows 3.1, where there was a distinctive 3D effect on buttons when pressed.

            This "flatness" thing was (re)invented by Microsoft and the Metro interface. It's just the new rage, until the next trend comes (diagonals ? you heard it first here)

            What GPUs allow is transparency, alpha-blending, translucent menus.

    3. SuccessCase

      Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

      People see what they want to in this debate. I think there is some important principles that are rarely applied when talking about copying. It's easy and IMO deliberately disingenuous to refer to any single factors and label it as copying.

      The very fact of a single factor implies no creative design effort is required. So for example, screen size is a single factor. Colour is a single factor. "Flat" is a single factor. These things are simply the building blocks of design and being "the same" on any single factor says nothing at all. Nor should it. If to re-use a material, colour or size constitutes copying and is bad, then everyone is a rip-off artist. Clearly that's nonsense.

      But once multiple factors are the same we can start to take notice. Having said that, multiple factors being the same are not always a bad thing. Sometimes they are the same because we are dealing with a parody or a tribute, both of which have their clear role and their own special kind of creative merit.

      But, multiple factors may also be the same in ways that are entirely conventional and required no creative input to get there. At this point in time, having a screen, a processor and RAM are an example of this. So multiple factors alone are not sufficient to declare copying.

      A good creative product design sees multiple design factors combined to make a coherent entity where each of those factors is integral to and contributes to the improvement of practical feature, or create an aesthetic harmony, or most usually both. They may be combined with conventional factors as well (such as the aforementioned processor RAM and screen). That doesn't matter. It's the combination of new additive factors that are significant.

      So no, Samdroids, single factor concepts like screen size are not a creative design. Nor is the concept of a "flat" user interface which has been around for a lot longer than smartphones.

      THIS is an example of a multi-factor design similarity that amounts to a simple rip off where the rip-off merchant has done precious little thinking for themselves :

      Rip-off second icon in the row

      There are many many examples of multi-factor copying by Samsung when it comes to Apple iPhone and iOS it's hard to know where to begin. Here's just a few examples

      Samsung multi-factor copying is rife

      Now I know many techies don't have much in the way of creative capacity. So they tend to see a design and think, "yes, that's the solution and the obvious way to do it". But for each of the examples given in the link above, to understand the degree to which Samsung engage in multi-factor copying, just consider the Nokia equivalent. In each case it will be it's own distinct design, where a Nokia designer has spent time and honoured the customer relationship with effort and the statement to the effect I'm going to do this the Nokia way because I believe in my skill and the creative industrial production of this company.

      When people say copying is the sincerest form of flattery they say it because they have little control over it and it's a positive spin to put on something that you have no real control over in life. When you have no control over such things, it's important to remain positive and look after what you can control more than what you can't. We don't say it because slavish copying is OK, or nor does it mean doing so other than for reasons of parody or tribute to the original creative, is OK either. It's little more OK than plagiarism. It's tacky, cheap and is like saying to your users, "we couldn't be bothered to present this to you on our own terms according to own design beliefs and values because frankly, we prefer theirs."

      1. frank ly

        @SuccessCase Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        "Now I know many techies don't have much in the way of creative capacity."

        Do you have any hard figures and reliable studies to back that up, or are you just being 'creative'?

        1. Chris Miller

          @frank ly

          Probably a barista.

        2. SuccessCase

          Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          "Do you have any hard figures and reliable studies to back that up, or are you just being 'creative'?"

          No I have no studies to back that up. I have eyes. I lived during the period when techies could customise Windows 3.1 with their own colours and fonts. 'Nuff said.

          1. Rufus McDufus

            Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

            Has it occurred to you that 'techies' may not be the ones designing the phone styling and look & feel of the OS?

            1. SuccessCase

              Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

              "Has it occurred to you that 'techies' may not be the ones designing the phone styling and look & feel of the OS?"

              Yes

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

              >Has it occurred to you that 'techies' may not be the ones designing the phone styling and look & feel of the OS?

              Yes - if you want a giggle I'd recommend you visit the exhibition of students work that many design schools put on to showcase their graduates.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

            >"Do you have any hard figures and reliable studies to back that up,

            > or are you just being 'creative'?"

            >... I lived during the period when techies could customise Windows 3.1

            > with their own colours and fonts. 'Nuff said.

            A better example would of been the period when techies thought they were graphic designers and built their own websites... This is also one of the reasons why voice systems are in the main so appalling, techies ie. programmers, think they know better than radio script writers how to build a dialogue-based UI...

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          Nah, he's right, it doesn't take any creativity to design a large scale enterprise networking system or a significant piece of multiuser software, it's just a matter of rolling out the specification, which has been designed by someone else.

          /s

        4. JEDIDIAH
          Mushroom

          Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          > "Now I know many techies don't have much in the way of creative capacity."

          I would rather that form followed function and that "design" was kept out of it. I would prefer that the practical considerations come first and the visual nonsense is only applied later once the important details are dealt with.

          "Designers" are so full of themselves claiming ownership on simple things that require no real creativity at all.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @SuccessCase Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

            "I would rather that form followed function and that "design" was kept out of it."

            So, Soviet era apartment blocks must be the height of design for you.

            You need help.

      2. returnmyjedi

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        Most of the features that Samsung ' copied' in the blood linked to seem to be vast improvements on the Apple designs (the on-screen keyboard especially, which after eight iterations of iOS is still diabolical).

        This self belief in Apple's unwavering originality and innovation doesn't seem to be isolated to the hallowed wakes of Cupertino either. Just this afternoon the bloke in front of me at the rugby (go Saints!) was dissing the man in the seat next to him for owning a HTC One M8 which was a apparently a shameless facsimile of his iPhone 6. Yet another example of the lengths that Apple's competitors will go to in bending the space time continuum just to nick fruity ideas.

        1. SuccessCase

          Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          "Most of the features that Samsung ' copied' in the blood linked to seem to be vast improvements on the Apple designs"

          Next post: my impossible to prove but nevertheless sincerely felt belief that for many techies, design taste is like the colour "red" to people with Deuteranopia.

        2. Apdsmith

          Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          It also ignores one of the things that Apple actually does do quite well - I don't rate them as all that innovative, personally (This is the company that sued MS for stealing the stuff _they_ stole from PARC, remember) - but it'd be foolish to deny Apple's talents as system integrators. Getting all of the stuff that other people invented to work together well is an important skillset of it's own, but because of the insistence on maintaining the "Apple invented the helicopter" thing they've got going on they completely ignore this (I think) fundamental aspect of their business.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

            ".. the stuff _they_ stole from PARC, remember"

            I am going to make it my goal in life to point out this lie every time some moron on this forum posts it. Apple did not steal anything from Xerox.

            1. JEDIDIAH
              Devil

              Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

              It doesn't matter if they "stole" it or "bought" it. The result is the same. They cribbed it from someone else. They did not invent it. They merely took someone else's stuff and reused it.

              Apple like Microsoft are both great at watching the innovators flounder. Then they swoop down like vultures when everyone else has done the hard work trying to push the technology forward. They steal or buy stuff and then run the real risk takers out of business.

          2. Handy Plough

            Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

            If you mean stole as in "paid for", then yes, you are correct.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

              Stole or paid for ... either way, where is the innovation ?

      3. SuccessCase

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        BTW, I don't agree with all the examples given in the second link. Namely, the MacBook Air "copy," USB Connector "copy" and camera connection copy and possibly the iPad "copy". It seems to me in those cases the conventional arrangement argument I've given above applies sufficiently that the similarity with Apple applies only as a single factor or at least is not particularly onerous and they can't clearly be called rip-offs.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          "BTW, I don't agree with all the examples given in the second link."

          I think there are rather more exceptions than you allow.

          Taking the first one, iPhone 3G, once you get past the shape about the only striking resemblance in detail is that they both have an icon of a phone handset on a green background on the bottom left. The shape? They're both rectangles with a similar size & shape with rounded edges. Why? I don't suppose Fanbois & Samdroids have different proportions or sizes of hands & face and people have been rounding off edges at least since the neolithic when they started applying retouch to the edges of flint blades.

          Next, the iPad2: different aspect ratios, totally different screen layouts - where's the dock on the Sammy?, bits & pieces in the bezel.

          And so on.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          So you don't agree with the Macbook Air or USB connector 'copy' - so you do with the rest...

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Holmes

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        @SuccessCase - You lost me at "there IS some important principleS" and "any SINGLE factorS and label IT as copying".

        Your butchery of grammar rules related to the use of plurals is hurting my tiny creative brain. And I don't own a Sammy (besides a cheap Chromebook my daughter stole from me) or any Sammy stock, so beat them up all you like. I'm sure they are just stealing rounded corners and bouncy icons all over the place - real important stuff. But please get your verbs and nouns to match up.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          "Your butchery of grammar rules"

          It's not butchery, he's just being creative.

      5. Philip Lewis

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        Success case, an upvote for cogent intelligent commentary, dutifully downvoted by the commentards here who demonstrate yet again their paucity of objectivism and sense of reality.

        Your post should be post of the month.

        Sorry I can only give 1 upvote

        1. SuccessCase

          Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

          Thank-you Philip.

      6. Indolent Wretch

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        >> Samsung multi-factor copying is rife

        And the problem with all such "studies", all such fan compiled accusation lists is they ALL start with the blind assumption that the Apple design is the first ever design of it's type. They never look for prior art. They never look for the things Ive's used as inspiration (never to admit) before he then accuses others of copying.

        This is important as:

        Apple invented it, Apple made it successful, Samsung copied Apple

        Sounds an awful lot worse than:

        Apple copied it, Apple had success with it, Samsung copied it to.

      7. Alan Johnson

        Response to: Now I know many techies don't have much in the way of creative capacity

        I take it you are not a 'techie'. I have worked in product design almost my entire life and I need to deploy creative and tehcnical skills. In my experience the only people who think engineers and scientists are not creative are those who are ignorant and/or incapable of technical work and lack the imagination to see why creativity is important in technical fields.

        In other words those who are both ignorant and stupid.

        In the wider debate about Apple the reason they get such a hostile reception is that they managed to claim as their own design elements they themselves copied and which were well established before they entered the market. This reduces innovation and the ability to be creative.

    4. ~mico
      Pint

      Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

      kudos for mentioning LG, I was actually considering it to become my first smartphone, but got Samsung blackjack instead. But of course, first touchscreen smartphones were by Microsoft/Compaq and Palm/Sony.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

      Huh? According to Walter Isaacson's biography of Jobs, the entire "Apple Look" was basically ripped off from Bang & Olufsen. Which is obvious to anyone who is a Jobs contemporary.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Those in glass houses, Sir Jony...

        The B&O design language (or more correctly that of the individual involved) is straight lines. If B&O designed any Apple device, it would look massively different.

        B&O has other design elements to be sure, but the predominant visual one is straight lines - Jacob Jensen design house.

        There are a few curves in recent years, this is seen as a radical departure from their otherwise consistent design language.

  2. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    And Samsung

    And Samsung got the IPhone design, time travelled back before the IPhone came out and released a phone. Those bastards!

    (As I recall, Samsung showed photos of one of their phones with design elements Apple claimed were copied from IPhone... but the Samsung had already been out for 6 months! Samsung's lawyers made a procedural error and Apple got this declared inadmissable.)

    Another good reason not to buy Apple products. I won't support a company that tries to go sue anybody that ends up with a vaguely similar looking product. The hardware or software (if proprietary) was copied outright? That's not theft (unless they stole a prototype) and Ive sounds like an idiot abusing the term theft for things that are not theft; but this is nevertheless a serious legal problem. Ending up with a product that vaguely looks like another product? Suck it up guys.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: And Samsung

      Given the number of products Samsung releases, it is a cinch they'd have something that matches almost anything. I'd be not at all shocked if Samsung has released something like that goofy square Blackberry phone at some point.

      There's a difference between having one product that you sell a few thousand of and then forget, and making it the basis of your whole product line.

      1. Howverydare

        Re: And Samsung

        "Given the number of products Samsung releases, it is a cinch they'd have something that matches almost anything. I'd be not at all shocked if Samsung has released something like that goofy square Blackberry phone at some point."

        With some artistic licence in terms of how similar they look, they did.

        http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/26/review_samsung_p300/

        Thanks El Reg for the article.

    2. gnasher729 Silver badge

      Re: And Samsung

      I only remember that there were a few sites on the Internet showing a website from a 2006 tradeshow where Samsung had "copied" lots of things that were part of the iPhone when that was released in 2007. Except that someone had doctored the numbers on these sites, and the images were really from 2007; pictures from Samsung phones of the real 2006 trade show looked nothing like an iPhone.

  3. bex

    Apple invented nothing

    There is nothing in IOS that had not been done before in some form or other, I suspect Ive and his ilk are big Star Trek fans

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apple invented nothing

      So a fake prop from a sci fi show consists of prior art in your world? I guess if I figured out warp drive that used a power source involving lithium, you'd claim I don't deserve a patent for it, because Gene Roddenbury got there 50 years ago?

      1. Grikath

        Re: Apple invented nothing @DougS

        Wellll.... Making the film prop into reality has been a neat feat of engineering and technical design. As for the actual look of the thing... Well yes, I think you could credit Roddenbury ( or whoever came up with it in the prop department) for that.

        But it sure as hell wasn't Apple that came out with the first flip-phone.. I think it was Nokia or Ericsson who came up with that one.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Apple invented nothing @DougS

          Since Apple NEVER made a flip phone, it is a pretty safe bet they didn't have the first one!

      2. John Tserkezis

        Re: Apple invented nothing

        "So a fake prop from a sci fi show consists of prior art in your world?

        They count every bit as much as all those bullshit patents of things that have allready been invented, but still legally belong to the new owners because they haven't been documented within the US borked patent system before.

        You know, like the "wheel", and "curved corners".

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