Looking for a job in Europe? Experienced IT staff needed in UK, Italy and Germany Qualified IT worker? Fancy working in Europe? Come on over... but only to the UK, Italy and Germany. According to a new report funded by the European Commission, the number of ICT jobs in Europe is growing by about 4 per cent per year. But the number of suitably skilled workers is not keeping pace and by 2015, it predicts a …
"Oh, and what's that bit about training?"
It's that thing they book you on , but cancel it at the 11th hour because they realise they have to do without you for a couple of days and because you had to guess and brute force your way to learning the systems in place, due to a lack of training, no-one else knows it as well as you, so therefore can not risk having leave the office to learn properly about the system you are already bodging your way through.
Yes rant, because its now the 3rd F**KING time it's happened!
Speaking as a white beard (literally), training never stops, as in personal training.
Someone's always bringing out new buzzwords you have to examine and discover it's more warmed over ideas from 25 years ago and given a poncey new name, as for frameworks those things multiply like rabbits, particularly the JavaScript ones, every time I look at a new Dev job ad there's always at least one new acronym you have to look up or obscure tool they have decided to use.
New stuff coming out makes new areas of tech more affordable to mess with, I'm currently juggling with Arduino's Raspberry Pi's, Beaglebones and a host of components in my spare time, never touched that stuff before but you never know it may come in handy (or more important bankable).
Paid training by the company is always kind of nice though extremely rare, particularly if they do a good lunch, but they usually start the same way, if I get presented with the OSI 7 layer model or the DOD model, or them explaining what a variable or an object is one more time I will literally scream.
"71 per cent said that experienced workers were able to keep their skills up to date"
Does that mean there's 29% that aren't?
No, that's 29% that have to do it themselves without being able to spend a fortune on the setups that rubber stamp everyone as long as they pay. Unfortunately, only the rubber stamps count when you're dealing with a HR droid or worse, with HR software. Whoever writes this shite is IMHO singlehandedly responsible for the decline in the quality of IT people because it gets the people through that can show you a piece of paper, but not the hard experience that ensures they know how to deliver (aka the people you actually need, but can't get because &%*ç HR keeps filtering them out). I've taken to bringing the whole recruitment process back inhouse with some people who actually know how to read between the lines of a CV.
Don't give me certs, give me knowledge and experience. Classically, those reside with the 29% that don't show up as "keeping up to date" because they're so good they never get the time to go on course which result in rubber stamps - they're too busy keeping the rubber stamp idiots out of trouble.
Every time I see this "we need more IT people" guff I know it's all about getting some more cheap people in who know how to spout acronyms to impress HR, but who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery without having to look it up.
/rant (I've been on both sides of this equation)
Sure there isn't the exact perfect match for each job willing to work for the salary that employers would like to pay...
But is thete really a huge shortage?
Or is it an excuse to off shore or bring in talent from, say, India and keep tech salaries low?
"No, otherwise pay rates would be rising. They're not (In real terms I'm 25% worse off than I was a decade ago)"
Your skill-set isn't experiencing a shortage or others are better than you at what you do - no offence intended. I pay far less for GIS skilled people than I did a decade ago, I struggle now to find affordable IoT and big data people.
"Your skill-set isn't experiencing a shortage or others are better than you at what you do - no offence intended. I pay far less for GIS skilled people than I did a decade ago, I struggle now to find affordable IoT and big data people."
And I'd like an affordable DB9... Pay peanuts, get monkeys!
There's a shortage of IT skills... or more likely a shortage of cheap labour - for example, the advert that kept appearing on the reg for a network engineer for SIS for 38k in London. For some reason they're having trouble filling that post, must be a lack of qualified people.
"a structural shortage of over 500,000 jobs caused by a lack of available talent"
If a company really NEEDS staff (any staff, not just IT), ie their business is suffering without this position being filled, they will pay what is necessary to fill that position. If there is an opening at a company that is unfilled for many months, probably that means that the current staff are coping well enough as they are.
The only alternative is that the perceived business benefit of filling the vacancy is not greater* than the pay required to fill the vacancy. As others have mentioned above, markets do not lie, and if there really were a large demand of IT skills, IT wages would be rising... but they're not
*In some countries such as Italy, it could be that there IS currently a perceived greater benefit, but because of labour laws making it difficult/impossible to fire people, the post isn't filled unless business perception is that this benefit will be long-lasting over many years.
It could be that the IT people currently working in these companies with open positions are working massive hours o overtime or are currently doing two jobs at once. Perhaps the company want to expand their IT services but only has enough staff to maintain what they currently have? They could also be looking for people to fill positions that are currently being filled by contractors or off-shore folk.
Training?
What's that?
You mean when my employer pays thousands for me to sit in a conference hall listening to waffle, while some old guys drag the session back to basics and I'm led through a click-through tutorial of what menus I need to click on in the new versions of Windows?
I'll stick to the "We need this" - "Right, we'll need to set up DFS, install new hypervisors, we should look into failover clustering, this 2012R2 feature looks nice, wonder how well that integrates with Windows 10, we need to work all this out by the end of the month so we can start deploying" method of training, thanks. Seems to have served me well for over 15 years.
That is offensive, I have been in training sessions where there so-called young, high flying, ultra cool dudes that know everything have so little understanding of the basics that the session is next to useless. This scenario occurs foar more than the "old guys" holding it back.
In fact you are probably one of the many know-it-alls that believe you KNOW everything when in fact you acually UNDERSTAND next to nothing.
There is a very subtle but stratigic difference between knowing (reciting a book) and understanding the application of knowedge and it's interaction with the environment.
"this 2012R2 feature looks nice, wonder how well that integrates with Windows 10, we need to work all this out by the end of the month so we can start deploying"
I'm guessing you only work for small outfit's right?, ever heard of bugs and service packs, they are kind of popular with Microsoft.
Ever heard the sound of angry users screaming in their thousands as one because your comprehensive tests failed to pick up a common edge case?, ever had to say to a CIO "Microsoft have promised they are working on it and it will be patched really soon"?
Nice work if you can get it Lee.
Many people been stuck doing the donkey work unable to progress because no training , or even work experience has been forthcoming!
Why train the grunts or offer them any opportunity to do higher up work? youll just need new grunts.
Dogsbodys of the world unite! If you've been in th same position for over 3 years with no sign of learning anything new , let alone training or a promotion tell your employer to sit on it and run for the hills! pastures new!
I would judge that person more than someone who's not had any IT work at all in their lives.
With VM's, tech previews, evaluations and a ton more, I would worry about someone who's not only allowed themselves to get stuck in a rut and can't poke their head above, but also complains about lack of training when they aren't doing stuff themselves. And when you get into stuff like Linux, free Hyper-V hypervisors, etc. there's really no excuse for not having tinkered with something. That your employer didn't want to actually deploy it is neither here nor there.
I'm not saying that's you, I'm blowing up one comment to become a persona here, but I worked as a "roaming tech" (I hate the word consultant) for many years - zero equipment beyond what the place had already, no budget to get new stuff, emergency cases in dire situations, stuff I've never had to deal with before and need to learn "on the job", and then "oh, can you just make it do this" and I came through without any "training" of any kind. In fact, where offered I actively refused because it was unsuitable and/or only trained me on what I already do day-in, day-out.
I never expect anyone to have used a particular product, or feature, but I expect them to have an outline of what it is, have played with similar features and - even if it means clarification like "Hyper-V is a virtualisation hypervisor" - that they can then pick up on it and go "Oh, right, well, I've played about with some of the ESX / VMWare stuff and I've done a bit of Xen for my own stuff but I haven't touched Hyper-V personally".
The answer "Nope, I've never deployed it outside my personal test environments, but I think I have a grasp of what's involved because I've done a lot of tinkering on my personal test network at home" is actually VASTLY informative to an employer. It means you're happy to admit holes in your knowledge, happy to play and tinker, able to do these things off your own back, have some experience of the concept, have taken the time to learn on your own time, and are not scared to say "Never done it 'for real' but I'll have a go if you're okay with that".
I have to agree with your last paragraph. But if you've been in a position for 3 years and not progressed in some way, I judge that person just as much for not having stretched themselves, done things on their own time, etc. I'm not a "management" sort, except in job-title. I'm purely functional and hands-on. But I worry about people who need "training" to have booted up something in VMWare and played about with the new features. Hell, when a new OS comes out, I pretty much compete with those around me to find the holes and the problems in it as soon as the first public preview is available.
The best teams I've worked on, are basically competition over who's deployed some new technology before. Then you become the "virtualisation guru" of the team because you've done it a bit at home. Then someone else starts putting in some HA functions into your hypervisors to beef them up and "beats you" because they read something on Google and try it on the test network. I've had competitions over who could deploy a PHP-enabled web server first back when PHP was new to us, and one of us did it on Linux and one of us heard it was possible on Windows. The thing never went into service, but the curiosity was there.
Sure there are some dead-end jobs, but the point of IT is that like most other professions (as opposed to just "jobs") you HAVE to keep on top of it. A doctor who doesn't research a strange condition he comes across or a lawyer who doesn't bother to read the new legislations would be out of a job soon too. Or stuck doing only the stuff people tell them to do.
Please note, I have no industry certifications. I have a degree in mathematics. But I have had a career exclusively in IT for a decade and a half. Because when someone says "Our servers are a little overworked, there's a bottleneck here, what can we do?", I go research the answer.
Don't expect training in IT. It doesn't happen. Because those who need it you won't want to give it to them (a little knowledge is dangerous) and those who you might want to give it to don't need it.
holy shit thanks for the giant reply! I dont know where to start . I'm a little drunk and got an episode of Walking dead to get back to. so in no particlar order...
I dont expect actual (well, value) official training for the reasons you've illustrated, and yes, you have to keep on top at home, but some jobs give you opportunities to mess about wit stuff and some dont. they just dont. theres a server/destop wall - thts what ive always beenup agianst. I've been at this a couple meore year than you, and I've managed to scrape to gethr all kinds of extra knowledge abiove putting a disk in a machine and re-imiging it . I even understood most of your virtulisation talk even though its not an area ive particularly looked into. I have set up virtual servers and machines at home whiolst playing with a pxe boot and go deployment stuff.#
aboit that wall - i got a jiob at a college at first - the perfect place you;d think toplay around with stuff , but no ,i joined the dy they decided two teams one who designs , develpops , grows , - and the others those who change passwords all day. after about 8 years of failing to progress i left - did another 7 years for a big well known It company, as dersktop officially but did get opportinunity to learn (and do) a fair bit more - nochance of moving up though. Left that , 2 years ago , did year here , year there - current project im assisting with (same story) expires in june. I'm gonna keep moving till i find somewhere thats letes yo properly "learn on the job"
But going back to the official training - i reckn the way forward for me - nad i should have done thid a while ago - is to ratlle off a few of those industry certs like mcp n stuf , cos all ive got on paper is "desktop" although i do dress that up and mention everything alese i can do on the cv
gonna d mcps in A.D and SQL first. Oh, I do have an HND ( thats nearly a degree you knoe )in engineering but dosent seem to impress anyone
see the problem is ,as I,T, has got bigger and more organised its always "see well we have a guy for that, you stick to your job" which is only natural ad as it should be i guess. I need to find a really small place where i can use the enterprise hardware my friends are chucking out to make stuff happen!
(excuse me if i dont go back and correct all thetypos causedby dodgy wirless kbd and rapid/tipsy tyoping)
and thanks for replying :)
Biggest issue is convincing a prospective employer you are ok living outside the UK, managed to get a contract abroad for a few months after that it was pretty easy, languages in Europe not much of a problem either, lots of US and UK companies in Europe who have English as the office language.
Much better lifestyle and money than most jobs in the UK can offer, and as a bonus many managers came up through the ranks and know what they are doing (the German and Dutch managers I've worked for are almost biologically incapable of ignoring something that's not working right).
I strongly recommend working abroad, the UK government seems intent on turning the UK into a slave labour camp, wages for perm jobs have fallen by at least 5k per annum in the last 5 years and as for contract it was savaged by the offshore suppliers and their massed ranks of ICT's setting up exclusive contracts with companies, I know there's decent stuff around buts what's the point of good money for 3 months to a year or so if you're thrown back in the jobs wasteland afterwards, and when I see stuff advertised for 100-200 per day all I can do is shake my head in sorrow, after expenses and tax you might just as well be working a perm role.
My observation of the IT jobs market is a reduction in salary. I regularly check adverts and some of the salaries are just a joke. I recently saw a network/server support role in Linux Admin for £18,000 to £22,000. I am not a Linux specialist but I was left wondering what an employer expected at that salary level.
My estimate on looking at server support roles with Exchange or AD skills is that salary offers have reduced steadily and are probably 20% lower than 2 years ago. Many jobs are now been offered as contracts and want 'immediate start'.
I dont actually think there is a shortage of IT Pros. There is a shortage of IT Pros willing to take a pay cut or not seeing salaries that represent the experience and skills demanded.
I was out of work for 6 months in 2009, sent off 1,300 applications got 3 replies, 1 permanent for 27k 2 for contracts which started at 300 a day and were then reduced to 100 a day (the agent told me in one case the client had told him "The markets so crap we'll try it on", he was as angry about this as I was).
I can remember most jobs in London before the crash being about 40k for perm and contract was about 300-400 a day, now the average seem to be 35k for Perm or 100-200 contract, when I was unemployed I saw ad's on the Jobcentre website (I literally left no stone unturned) for Project Managers or Database Administrators "At or near the minimum wage", I can only think they were trying to justify bringing in an intra company transfer guy, to get around the "we advertised the vacancy but no one applied" requirement.
I now work outside the UK and have got a couple of very qualified Bulgarian guys working with me, when I show them the UK job ad's I get they nearly rupture something laughing, the British Government has created the worst of all worlds, a low wage economy with very high costs (in London at least), word is getting around, the only thing the UK is good for now is shopping for cheap electronic goods, made in China.
Cheap labour is cheap labour, and the going rate is at that price because it still gets the applications in. You and I know that it means you hire a lot of monkeys, but IT is so flooded in "I know a bit about computers" people that the rates plummet.
I don't think in my last 8 years of jobs have I been paid the advertised wage for very long. The rate at hiring was either more than the advert, or it was re-negotiated soon after. Get them to want you, then talk money. You'll be surprised how flexible they'll be at that point - they've already committed to you in their heads and will take (and expect!) a few grand hit to actually getting the candidate they want.
Last place I went to asked me what I wanted. I hate that. I always undersell myself. But got previous wage + promised (but undelivered) raises at old workplace + 20% as the starting salary.
The problem you have is that it's not a problem you can solve. If people are willing to pay 18k for a permanent member of IT staff, they know what they are getting or will soon find out. If everyone is doing that, there's a reason - it's good enough for them in the long run. Hence, there's little point challenging it. The job market is just flooded in people who will do that job, to a similar standard, for those prices. If you can differentiate yourself, then moving to a tighter job market is the only other solution.
However 1300 applications is incredible. There's something wrong there. I left my last employer back last September. I immediately applied to a temping agency and started looking around for jobs. I had applied to two by the time I'd been offered a permanent position (it didn't start immediately, but the paperwork was there and ready to go). I spent six months temping, and never had a day out. I bounced from one place to another while the agency found me something, and ended up staying at the last for five months. Hell, they gave me a leaving present when I went. Sure, it was temp work, and it was several grades below my normal level, but it was enough to be getting on with.
I can only imagine that your expertise is quite specialist, or that you lived in an area devoid of all work (not just IT).
I don't think the job market is any worse than it ever was. People say that, but the previous generation had worse trouble and got through it. I just think that schools are giving unrealistic expectations and not enough realistic training. The people you can pluck at even minimum wage and who'll do a good job and progress are few and far between. And a lot of them aren't even worth minimum wage (I agree with the concept of minimum wage entirely, I mean that they don't step up to justify even paying them minimum wage compared to others being paid the same).
IT definitely has a lot of paid monkeys, that's for sure. But I'm not sure it's as cataclysmic as it's made out to be - or employers would actually be paying more.
Like I said this was 2009, I've got 27 years experience ranging from desktop and server support to development, testing and application support, and all my clients have been Corporates since leaving school, i.e household names. My age might have been a factor but at that time from the IT guys I met in the Jobcentre this was affecting everyone.
2009 was a terribly crap year, and by the way I was living within commute distance of London, the situation is better now but the low wage trend continues.
I'm currently on a very good salary, and my current employer was glad to get someone with my range of skills and experience, but they are not in the UK.
Sure you can get a job for 18k, I have seen lots of guys get a job for 18k and then stay on it or the employer will cry bitter crocodile tears and say they can give you an extra 1000 a year but that's the absolute maximum they can go to, been there done that, it's not dictated by skills either, i know lots of very skilled guys on a pittance and complete idiots on large salaries.
Welcome left pondian!, look at Germany or Northern Europe, there are enough American companies looking for staff that speak American (lol),this conversation is basically referencing the UK and refers to pretty much everything except banking, but the banking guys definitely want their pound of flesh, so be prepared to work for your money, I was born in the UK and I avoid it like the plague now, you can only kick a dog so many times.....
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