back to article Labour manifesto: Tech Bacc, not-spot zapping and hi-speed interwebs

Labour was the first major party to kick off the round of pre-election pledges this week, releasing its 2015 General Election manifesto. Amid the usual list of vague-sounding promises were a number of familiar platitudes about plans to "build on our strengths as a leader in digital technology". "Labour will ensure that all …

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    1. Vimes

      And civil liberties? They don't deserve a mention?

      This whole thing reads like something run through the Dilbert mission statement generator. A lot of meaningless fluff.

      'Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing' - who knew Shakespeare had to deal with politicians?

      There's no mention of strengthening online freedoms, which would probably have a bigger impact in investment in this country than anything to do with not-spots. But then this is the party that gave us the 'Mastering the Internet' program and whose civil servant - Charles Farr - is still advising the government to this day.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Blessed are the believers...

      We desperately need people in government who are more on the ball with the IT and technology industries

      Tough - you are not getting them. The criteria for entry is graduation from a handful of well known private schools which produce people who go on to become mostly humanities graduates (and an occasional actor from time to time.

      It is a positive feedback loop which will not be broken by anything short of a repeat of the winter of discontent and that is not likely to be forthcoming for the time being.

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: Blessed are the believers...

        I'm not sure it's the schools that matter most. Although obviously they help in getting to the best universities.

        But it's the ability to do a couple of years work as a party researcher in Central London on no salary. And/or having the money to not work for a year or two while searching for a seat, and then campaigning for that seat at the election. Of course it's an advantage to have done that unpaid party-worker time in getting the seat. So the ability to live for 4 or 5 years on zero income - which tends to mean rich parents or family money.

        Add to this that the electorate seem to prefer younger top politicians (or so is the perception) - it's much harder to have a previous career, and still have a chance at high political leadership.

        The only solution I can see is proper party funding. In the grand scheme of things it's bugger all, but I would say each major party should have enough to employ a few economists, fund some academic studies, fund a decent central office research/policy staff and the like. So something like each MP getting a personal staff of 5 or 6, instead of the current 2 ish, and all the bigger parties getting a couple of million to do policy and research work.

        The public say they don't like professional politicians. But they also don't like politicians who have ouside earnings, so I don't see how you can solve that particular problem. But I guess we could have minimum age limits for MPs and ministers if we wanted to, but we'd obviously then not have such shiny, smiley politicians. Not a bad thing in my opinion, but then people might start complaing that they're all too old, and so out of touch.

  2. The_Idiot

    "We will strengthen the oversight of our intelligence agencies to make sure the public can continue to have confidence in the vital work that they do to keep us safe."

    'Continue to have confidence'. Which sort of implies they they it already. Like, people I mean. Like, already have confidence.

    Maybe:

    "We will pretend to strengthen the oversight of our intelligence agencies to make sure both members of the public who actually believe what they're told can continue to have confidence in the vital work that the investigative agencies do to keep us (the politicians) safe."

    Or maybe:

    "We will pretend to strengthen the oversight of our intelligence agencies to make sure the public can continue to have the same level of confidence they hold now in the work that the investigative agencies pretend to do."

    Not that the stated intentions of any of the other parties will, in my view at least, be different in any significant way. Of course, I'm an Idiot...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What good is all this wonderful technology if kids are mere consumers of video, music , dodgies and goods?

    Under Labour kids learned how to use computers, not how they work or how they can be commanded to work on behalf of the user (unless you think using a computer like an abacus or a typewriter is useful).

    Thank god the Tories understood that we need teach children about what's going on under the hood. Obviously the teachers don't agree, they want an easy life and can't teach kids how to code by reading a book or teaching guide the night before.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Thank god the Tories understood that we need teach children about what's going on under the hood."

      But I don't think that they do all need to know that.

      Actually for the great majority of people, the intricacies of the insides of a computer are way beyond their skill or desire to understand. I'm not being condescending. The world is a complex place and is becoming more complex. We can't all expect to know everything about the stuff we interact with.

      What's more important is that we don't overlook any of the young people who are capable of following successful and fulfilling careers in our industry. I would suggest that the best way to do this is with high quality education in core maths and science subjects, combined with interesting, rewarding and stable job opportunities.

      Give people a solid grounding and they'll be much more able to cope with the vagaries of our industrial landscape.

      And yes, I know these things are easier said than done.

      1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

        @ Evil Graham

        Actually for the great majority of people, the intricacies of the insides of a computer are way beyond their skill or desire to understand.

        So is mathematics, chemistry, physics and astronomy. We do teach them in school though.

        It does not matter if they will use it even once during their lives. What matters is that they have an idea how it works and have acquired some structured thinking in the process of figuring out how it works.

        In any case, while the intention was to teach them in schools, the schools did their very best to obstruct the intention. Same as with academies - given even an inch of deregulation a unionized state employee will peruse that deregulation to do less work.

        1. Intractable Potsherd

          Re: @ Evil Graham @ Voland's right hand

          "Same as with academies - given even an inch of deregulation a unionized state employee will peruse that deregulation to do less work."

          I have worked in state institutions most of my life (mainly NHS and universities), and I have never yet come across this particular mind-set. Indeed, it has been in my occasional forays into the private sector where I have found that any leniency or wiggle-room will be exploited to the maximum it can be, plus a large percentage over. "Being nice" on one occasion means a fight like hell to ensure that it doesn't become a habit.

          Of course, YMMV.

    2. Vimes

      Thank god the Tories understood that we need teach children about what's going on under the hood.

      I can only speak for myself, and admittedly this is a long time ago now, but I left school in 1995, and IT was a joke during my four years in that school. All we were taught was how to use software - not even what it did or the underlying concepts when it came to databases for example - and mostly using cheap software that we wouldn't even encounter in real life. From what I hear things haven't really managed to progress from there very much if comments I've heard in relation to the current state of play is anything to go by.

      This was during the last conservative government and in a very heavily conservative-leaning area (the last election saw the MP get more than 50% of the entire vote).

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        To be honest 1985 wasn't exactly a golden age.

        The class was divided into those struggling to type 10line "guess the number" programs in BBC Basic and those of us at the back writing our own games.

        The teacher was whichever maths person had once seen a computer at college.

        The O-level exam was to explain the difference between a minicomputer and mainframe and distinguish between a picture of a line printer and a dot matrix.

        But we were allowed stencils to draw our flowcharts ....

    3. The_Idiot

      On the other hand...

      "Thank god the Tories understood that we need teach children about what's going on under the hood."

      A large number of people are perfectly capable of getting in their car and driving to their important meetings (well, yes, and on dates, to the movies and to get their kids to whatever kids do) without knowing the complexities of the Infernal Conbunction Ensign - never mind the increasingly indecipherable mini-data-centre of electronics that goes into vehicles these days.

      Er - yes. I'm old. And grumpy. There's rocks round here called me granfer when they was mountains :-).

      Equally, if someone has to send an email to close a business deal (the informal 'whisky at the club' close that used to be a handshake, not the lawyers-at-dawn paper close), they don't need to know the difference between logical and physical cores, or why IMAP isn't POP3. Neither does their secretary when updating their calendar, or the bright young person-of-either-gender fresh out of school when emailing their CV.

      Unless it's relevant to what they're doing, or intending to do, that is.

      So I'll beg leave to differ from your 'thank god' and go back to being grumpy - after all, I had to be good at _something_... :-)))

    4. Cynic_999

      Kids will learn how to use computers to do the things they want to do without any need of formal "technology" lessons. The same as they learn how to use other things whether they get sex education lessons or not. Learning safe and effective use is however a different thimg!

  4. JHC_97

    Until companies train Graduates our young people won't get the skill sets. Code isn't an under 18 year old discipline. Its best learnt after 3 years of a STEM BSc followed by a taught Masters or in a 4 year Computer Science BSc* (including year in industry). All this rubbish about making computer literate O'Levels or A'Levels is crazy. You wouldn't employ a plumber who showed up with his A'Level in fluid disposal technology so why expect an A'Level in ITC to qualify someone as a coder.

    *3 of my friends are at the top of the coding scale and don't have a days academic training in computing between them. When i said best i didn't mean only.

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      1. The Vociferous Time Waster

        Re:

        Yeah but you built it so now we need people who can use it.

        Who are also cheap.

        I don't need a Sony engineer to program my VCR.

        1. LucreLout

          Re: Re:

          Yeah but you built it so now we need people who can use it.

          You'll also need people that can understand it, as you'll be the generation that will have to replace it when the previous posters greybeards retire.

          Trust me on this, if you hear nothing else true all week, you can take this to the bank: Offshore won't be up to the task of originating and properly engineering the replacements for the Boomers/Gen X's work.

      2. Leeroy

        I remember copying code into Blitz Basic on the Amiga 500, it took my uncle to point out that the REM parts were just notes to explain what the code was doing (I was 8 give me a break). He gave me some of his old programming books and they were much better than Amiga Format for actually learning what you were typing.

        These days of unlimited Internet, mobiles and tablets make consumption too easy and programming looks like it has an almost vertical learning curve. Take video streaming away for a week and see what happens?

        They need to point kids that are interested to places like code academy etc even if they just learn the basics of html they may move on to php and mysql, then they realise they can do some awesome (for geeks ) stuff in a few hours that works on all their devices.

        You don't need a masters to write code !

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Well said Sir!

        Sadly us Greybeards are getting to the point where we'd rather be pottering in the garden/riding the Harley/etc than putting up with the latest lot of management speak by MBA PHB's.

        I started learning Programming in 1972 (SOFOR) and have contunued ever since.

        I feel rather sad that most youngsters have just about NIl/Zero/Nada/Zilch interest in making stuff work.

        Who will create the complex systems of the future? The latest CS grads sure won't. If it ain't a webservice they don't wanna know. (obtained from 30+ interviews over the past few months). Topics like SNMP and even UDP are just foreign concepts to most of them.

        Planting spuds starts to look ever more attractive...

    2. localzuk Silver badge

      @JHC_97 - the world we live in now is not one driven by people with degrees only. It is one driven by ideas and skills. Companies want people who can develop quickly, who can adapt quickly and can keep up with the latest technologies.

      Sure, if you're looking for employees to develop stuff for $random_bank, you're going to go for someone with a bunch of initials after their name, its a way of protecting yourself. If you're a start-up, you won't care - so long as they can produce what you want.

      Going by paper skills is a poor way of finding staff. I have no paper degree, but I could run circles around a graduate in my field. Why? Experience.

      I'd employ a plumber who could do the work - I'd not care if they were qualified or not, so long as they knew what they were doing.

      The computing curriculum isn't about qualifying someone to be a coder anyway. It is about giving today's students a grounding in more than just PowerPoint and Excel. Its about getting them to understand the devices that they so easily interact with on a daily basis, to perhaps be able to work their way around a problem by themselves etc...

      1. LucreLout

        @localzuk

        Most of your post I agree with.

        I have no paper degree, but I could run circles around a graduate in my field. Why? Experience.

        Sure, but you'll not be competing with a box-fresh graduate, you'll be competing with someone of an equal level of experience and a "paper degree", or two.

        A degree only really teaches you to learn via study. You already know how to learn by doing: that you walk and talk testifies to that. It provides evidence of a minimum level of capability, which experience, unfortunately, doesn't. I've worked with a lot of people that have spent years doing things the wrong way.

        I'd employ a plumber who could do the work - I'd not care if they were qualified or not, so long as they knew what they were doing.

        No way I'd chance anyone working on my boiler that wasn't corgi certified (or whatever it weas replaced with). My mate Dave can push fit or braze pipes just fine, and he's ok with fitting taps or washing machines, but he's simply not qualified to work on the boiler.

        The computing curriculum isn't about qualifying someone to be a coder anyway.

        I can't speak to todays curriculum as I last graduated decades ago, but it most certainly was about coding when I did it.

  5. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    Wonderful news

    With all the other major parties promising pretty much the same thing - it looks like we can look forward to a new era of the white heat of digital technology bringing peace and prosperity to all - whoever wins.

    1. Gordon 10

      Re: Wonderful news

      In fairness I think the lib dems have promised more on the digital freedoms front.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Wonderful news

        I think the lib dems have promised free unicorns - doesn't mean much

  6. xerocred

    So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

    Source higher education statistics agency: https://www.hesa.ac.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2944

    Because employers want cheaper ones?

    1. xerocred

      Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

      tl;dr version

      14.4% in Chart 4

      1. All names Taken
        Paris Hilton

        Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

        Usually it is due to mid-management insecurity and fears.

        "Why - the new geezer knows more than me and I am the manager! Can't have that. Sack it now!"?

        1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

          Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

          Or it could be that the new grads THINK they know more than the incumbents and throw their toys out of the pram when they can't get their own way?

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

          Because nobody wants computer scientists - which is a good thing because very very few computer science courses produce them.

          Lots of places want software engineers - which is unfortunate because very very few computer science courses produce them.

          1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

            Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

            "We didnt't find a software engineer and the computer scientists were all too expensive, so we hired a web designer instead."

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

            Because not all universities are the same. The system fills up top down, and CS recruits through the entire spectrum. Comparisons of CS employment rate should be with other graduates with similar backgrounds.

            Also, in practical application, CS graduates have to compete with good engineering graduates, who may have better understanding of the context of the software product.

    2. LucreLout

      Re: So why is it computer science graduates have the higest unemployment rate?

      I'll have to make an assumption, given there seems no evidence either way, that most of the 14.4% that are unemployed are actively seeking work and are ding so in towns and cities rather than hills and fields.

      That being the case, this is a damning indictment of the offshoring boom that got started in the late 90s, under Labour, and has continued unabated and unregulated during the coalition. For the avoidance of doubt, this is a cross party failure or government.

      Stop the offshoring, stop the importation of whole armies of low cost low grade grads from the third world, and start recognising that while anyone can code, few can do it well. They tend to be well educated and have many years of experience. I get that your teenager can knock together a web page, or thrash out a database, but then, I am perfectly capable of cutting off your leg, so why would you need an experienced, qualified, and expensive surgical team?

      Down many decades I have learned that expecting competency and honesty from politicians will only lead to dissapointment, I would at the very least, expect them to stop pushing the lie when the industry has called them on it. I will teach my children to code as a fall back skill; I certainly won't encourage them to persue it as a career unless and until I see the offshoring stopped and the rampant ageism checked.

  7. Will Godfrey Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Oi!

    I come here to bury politics, not to praise it!

  8. Crazy Operations Guy

    "build on our strengths as a leader in digital technology"

    I love* it when politicians get blinded by nationalism... Truth be told, the UK isn't near being a 'leader' in technology, in front of the middle, perhaps. But The United States, South Korea, China, India, Japan, Singapore, and Taiwan are light-years ahead.

    *By love, I mean cringe and hiding in bed curled up in the fetal position after realizing that these people are in charge of nuclear weapons...

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: "build on our strengths as a leader in digital technology"

      Fortunately the nuclear weapons were built by the same leaders in digital technology - so probably don't work.

  9. All names Taken
    Paris Hilton

    It does not really matter ...

    Experience seems to suggest:

    Under Labour guvmint you get more UK pounds but they are not really worth much

    Under Cons guvmint you get fewer UK pounds but they really are worth a lot.

    My take: disposable income is bliss (and I prefer the second of the above options).

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yada-yada-yada

    Meet the new boss,

    Same as the old boss

    {well maybe not if the polls are anything to go by}

    Please wake me up when it is all over and tell me the GBP/USD exchange rate. That way I'll know who won.

    If it is around 1.30 then Milliband is PM and welcoming his paymasters (the Union Bosses) to Downing St. Better prepare yourself for another Winter of Discontent.

    If it is around 1.50 then Cameron is back in and we can Carry on as before gradually getting ourselves out of the mess.

    My long passed away father was a Trade Unionist and Labour Party member all his life. I was gobsmacked when he told me very late in his life that he only voted Labour at local elections and voted Tory at General Elections. His reasoing is that you can't give the workers everything they want and at the same time make the country a success. The same mindset just won't work. IMHO, he had a point.

  11. Tromos

    Technical baccalaureate

    Sounds mighty impressive, but probably just gets handed out to anyone capable of connecting an X-Box to a TV.

  12. teebie

    "We will need to update our investigative laws to keep up with changing technology"

    This seems like it will end badly.

  13. MJI Silver badge

    Are they fit to govern?

    Some of the party, well they worry me, Ed Milliband, can he even feed himself? He gives this aura of incompetence (not saying he is) and I cannot see him being up to the task.

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