back to article FBI: Apple and Google are helping ISIS by offering strong crypto

Apple and Google are helping terrorism by offering users encrypted communications, a senior FBI official has told the House Homeland Security Committee in Congress, and US law enforcement needs to stop them from doing it. Michael Steinbach, assistant director in the FBI's Counterterrorism Division, told Congress that ISIS and …

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  1. LaeMing

    Apple and Google are helping anyone who doesn't want the FBI et. al. doing un-warranted drag-netting of their data. Since that set includes the entirety of the US population, I think they are at worst guilty of patriotism.

    1. depicus

      The fact that ISIS and other Syrian groups are rolling their own cryptographic software based on open source code and even hosting it on places like Github would suggest this is your basic scaremongering by people who do know better.

      While I'm sure the plebs of most terror organisations may still use Apple and Google any self respecting terrorist middle management would be using their own systems.

    2. g e

      Won't someone think of the children, too?

      Never mind terrorists, it must be directly responsible for pedo's and child-abusers in general, too, surely?

      Plus pretty much anything else that makes a voter pay attention to the guff the (in)security services spout.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Won't someone think of the children, too?"

        .... Careful, people get arrested for that!

      2. Thomas Wolf

        Re: Won't someone think of the children, too?

        The FBI already tried that route a few months ago - apparently, spouting nonsense about Apple helping pedophiles didn't work, so they're ratcheting their nonsense up a bit by claiming Apple is an aide to terrorism.

    3. Little Mouse

      Re: "un-warranted drag-netting" & "that set includes the entirety of the US population"

      @LaeMing +1. The security services want to spy alright, but are people still gullible enough to believe that the primary target is foreigners and terrorists?

      "Instead the FBI wants a front door; a system to allow it to break encryption created by US companies"

      Ever seen the film Sneakers?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      err wait...

      Given that ISIS is a CIA operation, why don't they want Greedle and Crapple to help them?

  2. Schultz
    Go

    You say yes, I say no.

    You say impossible, but I say impussyblah-blah-blah ...

    The NSA demonstrated that it is possible to have breakable unbreakable encryption with elliptic curve cryptography. Now it's just a matter of turning back the clocks and getting the cat back into the bag. (might it then, not, be a bit alive if we stop looking?)

    Now if we could just go on pretending that the world is flat, that three letter agencies can do no evil, and that cryptography is a state of mind as opposed to a mathematical concept.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  3. Shadow Systems

    Dear ThreeLetterAgencies. Fuck You.

    Anyone willing to give up Liberty for Security has already lost & shall have neither.

    I refuse to give up my Liberty for your false sense of security, so you can just fuck off.

    I'll be the Bastard using 1TeraBit Encryption on my damned grocery lists if that's what it takes to make it harder for you to violate my Right To Privacy.

    So see this gesture? It's me growing new appendages with which to Flip You Off.

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Dear ThreeLetterAgencies. Fuck You.

      Many of us grew up in countries where terrorism was a daily threat, we lived with it, we didn't let it affect us, we just got on with our lives, with the thought that the next waste bin we pass could explode buried deep at the back of our minds.

      My father was lucky twice. When based in NI (RAF), he and some friends were off duty and went to the local pub. His mate ran ahead to open the car, while my father and the "girls" wandered slowly up the lane. As his mate arrived at the car, he was gunned down.

      Another time, he was visiting friends in Belfast and had to drive one to hospital, after he was crushed by a heavy machine they were unloading, as it slipped and pinned him against the side of the lorry. On his way back, he was stopped at the lights, when two men in raincoats walked past him, opened their coats and riddled the car in front of them with bullets.

      He didn't let it affect his daily life. Likewise, growing up I was affected by his example. On 9/11 I was staying on the 46th floor of an American brand hotel on the flight path to the airport. A lot of guests booked out, but the English guests remained where they were.

      If you give in to the terrorists and allow the government to eliminate your freedom in the name of security, then you have let the terrorists win.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        NI

        You are forgetting that the NI situation didn't involve Terrorists[1], it involved heroic Freedom Fighters financed by respectable USA based organisations like NORAID and Clan na Gael.

        [1] The IRA are not and were never registered as a "Foreign Terrorist Organisation" by the State Department - hence FBI ambivalence.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: NI

          That would explain why US troops weren't sent to NI after 9/11 after the promise to fight terror.

          Also no US troops in the Basque region.

          But thereagain, there were no oil interests their either.

          Coincidence? I think not!

          1. jason 7

            Re: NI

            I remember watching 9/11 on the TV and saying to myself "Welcome to the real world USA!"

            I was under the impression they would handle it like everyone else (as mentioned above) and just soldier on regardless.

            I was wrong.

            1. Mark 85

              Re: NI

              I believe that most people would have soldiered on. What I saw was an immediate pandering and scare mongering from politicos and media. For days on end... over and over the images of the planes flying in and media and politicians telling us we weren't "safe" and needed protecting.

              The best thing the politicos could have done would to been said "F*** you terrorists.. we're going to go about our lives and ignore you.". But then again, there's a lot of commentards here about who feel that protection and security trump freedom's.

              The terrorists are helping the politicians and the three letter agencies win. It's all about power and money....

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Republican fearmongering

                The republicans are the ones who fucked it up by trying to whip up fear after 9/11. They found they did very well in past elections with the "red scare" and when that started dying down in the 80s with fear of violent crime (google Willie Horton) so they know very well how fear swings votes their way.

                Since violent crime had peaked around 1990 and dropping every year they needed a new boogeyman and seized on the opportunity to give us something new to be fearful of on 9/12. The democrats, spineless as always, immediately caved and went along with all the bad ideas like the Patriot Act and invasion of Iraq, because they didn't want to risk being seen as weak on terrorism if there was another 9/11. That is probably why Obama has gone along with and even doubled down on Bush's policies, he knows if he gives in on anything he personally and the democrats as a party will have the blame laid at their feet. It isn't about what is best for the country, it is about what helps the future of his party.

                It is sad that freedom has become a bargaining chip in politics, but the men who seek power do it for their own sake, not because they give a damn about the country. There are undoubtedly some republicans who would like to see an ISIS strike in the US so they can blame Obama and by extension Hillary and all the democrats, for allowing it to happen.

      2. cantankerous swineherd

        Re: Dear ThreeLetterAgencies. Fuck You.

        +1

        regrettable lack of stiff upper lip in the ruling classes these days.

        1. Captain Hogwash

          Re: Dear ThreeLetterAgencies. Fuck You.

          > ruling classes

          There's the problem right there. That should a concept should exist at all.

      3. John H Woods Silver badge

        Re: Dear ThreeLetterAgencies. Fuck You.

        "Many of us grew up in countries where terrorism was a daily threat, we lived with it, we didn't let it affect us" --- big_D

        Absolutely. Not only were the IRA and the Baader-Meinhof gang a real and credible threat where I grew up as a child (JHQ Rheindahlen), but the far bigger threat was the sick, authoritarian society just over the wall that was going to roll tanks over Europe and take away all the rights we had fought so hard for. Unfortunately, we didn't see the sick authoritarian society approaching from the opposite point of the compass ...

      4. Moonunit

        Re: Dear ThreeLetterAgencies. Fuck You.

        Second that motion. To be fair to the TLAs, they're just the reflection of society's lack of introspectiion and thought about The Stuff That Really Matters. I, too, grew up in a country where terror and some fairly enthusiastic* surveillance were the order of the day. We just got on with things too.

  4. Terafirma-NZ

    people use guns to hurt others they use knives and cars and bats and piratically any object made of metal/glass/wood/plastic so we need to outlaw all of those accept for the registered ones held by licensed people who maintain the GPS and video link back to the government.

    Would that finally make them happy....

    Government need to remember there is a step too far.

  5. big_D Silver badge

    Apple and Google protecting consumers

    against identity theft, data theft and scammers would be more accurate.

    If the FBI want no encryption on these devices, then maybe they and their colleagues should concentrate on doing their job and getting the scammers and thieves off the streets or off the net. If the net was a safe place to "walk down the street" there wouldn't be a need for the encryption.

    And if they hadn't been involved in mass surveillance of innocent people, then people also wouldn't need encryption.

    They only have themselves to blame. They have been distracted from doing their real job and got so greedy that the people reacted. Deal with it.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Apple/Google supporting ISIS? No.

    Apple and Google are simply making technology. ISIS are merely choosing to use it.

    Technology itself, with very few exceptions, is neither good nor bad, it's how we use it. Most can be used for both purposes.

    One can kill a person with their bare hands (or feet, if needed): does this mean the world's population should line up to have their limbs amputated? I think not.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apple/Google supporting ISIS? No.

      "Apple and Google are simply making technology. ISIS are merely choosing to use it."

      So the FBI and NSA claim. Let's see their evidence, because I don't believe these lying Chicken Little bureaucrats (nor their poodles in the UK). ISIS aren't fighting electronic warfare, using clever encrypted communications. They're happily dragging the middle East back to the dark ages, using traditional forms of violence and with the convenience of modern weapons. The main technology angle is the free publicity via the web, and that doesn't involve encryption.

      It's quite clear that this is the paedo-terrorist excuse, being used (as it always is) to support dragnet surveillance of the innocent. At the higher echelons of these organisations we should only expect FIFA levels of morality and conviction. The real problem is that the NSA employ around a million Americans, and of that million, only one had the conviction to call them out. The other 999,999 were happy to ignore their constitution and spy on their countrymen in return for a few dollars. The FBI would appear to have a similar situation to the NSA, so that's around 2m US citizens who are happy to participate in the surveillance state.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Apple/Google supporting ISIS? No.

        A million employees across everything encompassing Homeland Security perhaps (including paper pushers, janitors and the lowest level, the TSA screeners) but the NSA itself is estimated to have 30-40K employees, nowhere near a million.

        Anyway, Snowden was a contractor, not an employee, so no matter how many there are, none of their employees had the conviction to call them out.

    2. Adam 1

      Re: Apple/Google supporting ISIS? No.

      >does this mean the world's population should line up to have their limbs amputated

      Don't give them any ideas please.

  7. MacroRodent

    both ways

    Encryption helps also those who resist ISIS. In ISIS-controlled area they are the ones you want to hide things from! Also, If there was a mandatory backdoor, well-funded bad guys like ISIS would probably take advantage of it.

  8. RIBrsiq
    Facepalm

    Not only them!

    Very true, if you think about it. It's time we finally faced reality and did something about it, even if we don't like it.

    But on the other hand, the US army are helping ISIS by offering strong weapons platforms, as well.

    I forward that from this day forward, tanks should be made of papier-mâché, and guns should fire gum pellets.

    1. Haku

      Re: Not only them!

      Will a lifesize cardboard tank do?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not only them!

        Similar has been done before: Operation Fortitude: Wikipedia

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not only them!

      I've never understood why the US doesn't have the ability to remotely disable its weapons (big ones like tanks, not talking about M16s)

      If they could have a satellite send an encrypted signal to a tank with serial number xxx and cause it to do something that fries a bunch of circuit boards and makes it useless, that would have avoided ISIS getting their hands on the weapons we gave Iraq when their soldiers cut and run. Maybe Iraq wouldn't have liked that, but since they were free I doubt they would have refused them. They would have been glad of it about now when those weapons are being turned against them.

      I suppose someone would worry "what if someone hacks it" but we manage to keep nuclear launch codes safe, I'm sure we could treat the kill switch codes for weapons with similar safe handling. Or deservedly learn our lesson the hard way if we fail to do so.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Other way around

    ISIS are tech-savvy. If we didn't have strong crypto they would be carrying out far more assassinations because they could just plan them out from all of our comms data.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Of course, ISIS are riding around on camels using iPhones and coordinating attacks against the U.S. using facebook in war torn countries that probably don't have the best internet infrastructure and in the case of iraq I'm pretty sure the US probably own the networks anyway by now.

    I'm glad the FBI have cleared all that up for me, silly me for thinking a foreign combatant would not be stupid enough to use an American network to communicate.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What non-American networks are there?

      With tapped undersea cables, spy code built into cellular base stations, and so forth, just avoiding Facebook and Gmail is not enough to avoid the reach of US snooping.

  11. ratfox

    Die Gedanken sind frei

    Once again, I note that the FBI/CIA/NSA has not demanded mandatory, regular brain scans in order to read our every thought, and check we have no terrorist intent.

    And I ask, is the reason they haven't done so that they do not think they should have such an access to our thoughts, or is it merely that the technology does not exist – yet?

  12. A Non e-mouse Silver badge

    Don't just single out Apple & Google

    Apple & Google aren't the only people helping ISIS:

    - Firearms & ammunition manufacturers. How else are ISIS going to effectively kill people?

    - GPS providers & equipment manufacturers. How else are ISIS going to tell their arse from their elbow?

    - Vehicle manufacturers: How else are ISIS going to get to their next slaughter?

    Thank goodness there aren't American companies involved in these products that are helping terrorists.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Don't just single out Apple & Google

      Those technologies aren't really significant since they don't facilitate an IS threat to real people, only to Arabs and various minorities in the Middle East.

  13. Khaptain Silver badge

    Guns and stuff

    Will the FBI all also be making a future claim that all weapons manufacturing in the USA should also be stopped since ISIS use guns and other weapons, some of which might actually be of American origin......

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Guns and stuff

      I guess you hadn't heard. When the Iraqi Army runs away from ISIS they leave all those nice weapons and weapon-systems behind in their haste. I don't blame them for running, I'd give it more than a moments thought in their situation, but damn! We are talking literal billions of dollars of stuff laying around for anyone to pick up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Guns and stuff

        "When the Iraqi Army runs away from ISIS they leave all those nice weapons and weapon-systems behind in their haste"

        Don't forget all the weapons (and indeed training in Jordan) that the CIA provided to "moderate rebels" supposedly fighting the Syrian government. All those trained fighters and their weapons are now part of IS or Al Nusra, and the US government is now in the the bizarre and self-inflicted position of arming and training both sides of a conflict that it is involved in, and by opposing both Assad and IS, they seem to be fighting on both sides.

        And the unfortunate thing is that having inflamed the conflict, the Yanks simply won't leave alone. They keep on pouring in more weapons, in the apparent hope of defending the arbitrary borders of Iraq, ignoring that this is essentially a tribal and sectarian split that is caused by those arbitrary borders combined with the locals being unable to operate any civilised and democratic government.

    2. Dan Paul

      Re: Guns and stuff @Khaptain

      You mean the ones they stole from the chicken shit Iraqi army?

  14. Nolveys
    Big Brother

    Gee, Mike, maybe you should talk to your friends in the DoD about supporting the establishment of the "Salafist Principality" in order to overthrow Syria. Ya know, these things don't always work out so well.

    Also, Mike, I should let you know that I trust you about as much as I would trust a starving, rabid rottweiler if I was trapped in a room with it.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There is a great deal of

    Amnesia currently pervading the "security forces" (sic).

    Lest we forget that USA, the UK and others helped overthrow the despotic, but essentially coherent respective governments and that single fact is what has allowed IS to gain the footholds it has.

    We are merely reaping what we sow....

    Encryption is a minor part of a much wider problem..

    But yeah, I like my communication to be secure, I like that hackers and identity thieves will struggle to get access to my data. I also like the fact I can talk to people and no one else know what it is I’ve said.

    In conclusion, fuck you FBI, GCHQ et al.

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: There is a great deal of

      I often wonder how many the major powers are hoping that this IS thing will escalate a lot further.....

      Wars are always good for the economy...

  16. Decade
    Paris Hilton

    Lawmakers listen to this garbage?

    The problem is that the best minds in the field say doing so is mathematically impossible, and even if it were possible, you'd be painting a target on your back by telling the world there's a hack available and daring them to find it.

    To quote Whitfield Diffie (RSA 2015 Cryptographers’ Panel):

    “Not to disparage those ways in which it won’t work. Imagine that we adopt a key escrow regime. … Well, in the current state of technology, I think it’s much easier than it was when we argued about this 20 years ago, to pre-encrypt what you send into the channel. Now, that means that they exercise a warrant and access the outer layer that’s open to them. Then they’re going to find out that you’ve encrypted it in some way internally to the message they’re reading. Now, what are they going to do about that? Well, it might be in that case, they’ll do what they might have had to do anyway, come down on you with a bench warrant or something and order you to tell them how to read it. But that doesn’t gain them a lot.”

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lawmakers listen to this garbage?

      It's past time to start calling them what they are: crypto deniers.

    2. efestnetz

      Re: Lawmakers listen to this garbage?

      If you encrypt your symmetric message/HTTPS session key with your local TLA's Public Key (TLAPK) and broadcast that, it should be somewhat secure.

      Of course the government/militia must protect the TLAPRIVKEY corresponding to the TLAPK like their eyeballs. If they can assure that, the scheme is technologically very robust.

    3. efestnetz

      Re: Lawmakers listen to this garbage?

      Also, it could be mandated that in the course of one year 1% of all messages/sessions are decrypted and inspected for being double-crypted. If they found something double-crypted, you would be fined with some inconvenience like monetary loss or loss of internet connection. The inspection could be done by a separate entity from the judicial system instead of an intelligence service.

      That is much better than the status quo, where they apparently go for ALL KEY MATERIAL THEY CAN GET. Innocent or not. One single drive-by event might be sufficient.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Bench warrant?

      Diffie is charmingly naive. If the spooks had this capability, they'd decrypt as much as they can get their hands on and sniff through it just like they're doing with unencrypted data today.

      The public might have believed they would abide by their end of the deal when key escrow was first proposed on the 90s, but post-Snowden only hopeless fools and our congressmen (but I repeat myself) would believe the spooks would be required to obtain a court order to access the escrowed key.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Safe?

    I am sick and tired of people telling me they can make me "safe" if only I will give up this, that or the other fundamental right. I'll NEVER be safe if I live in a free country, because that's the price of freedom. If you want to be safe and be able to walk the streets anywhere at any time of night, go live in Cuba.

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