Surface Book: Microsoft to turn unsuccessful tab into unsuccessful laptop As expected, Microsoft has updated its Surface Pro fondleslab with a new model powered by Intel's latest silicon. But unexpectedly, it has also produced a laptop version of the platform that is going to make Apple sick. The Surface family had a rocky start, some might even say unsuccessful, with small marketshare gains – but …
They did, you can buy it without the Nvidia chip.
Seriously, you've got to applaud this, the ads were great, not a dancing student in sight, and they made me crave it. To think, MS were floundering in the wilderness not two years ago.
Disclaimer: Fanboi (& happy) owner of the Surface Pro 3.
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Its funny because Apple's model has always been control the hardware and the software. Microsoft (at least under Bill) has always gone the other route saying they make the software and have many OEM's making the hardware. Now they U turn after many years.
Its just Redmond at the photocopier again, now they have twigged you get a better product with tighter integration of hardware and software.
It's hardly like apple.. Apple control hardware and software.
This is more like the Google with the nexus devices, where they release OS and HW but others can release their own hardware.
And to say that MS have only just realised this is a bit mental... You know that this isn't the only hardware that MS make right?
It not even the only hardware that they make with the OS bundled... They have been doing it for years.
"Ounce for ounce, it's the fastest laptop ever made – twice as fast as the MacBook Pro."
Which model of MacBook Pro?
The 13" Pro is 1.58 kg (3.48 pounds) - about the same as Surface Book - and has a choice of dual-core processors, up to i7 3.1GHz (3.4GHz Turbo)
The 15" Pro is 2.04 kg (4.49 pounds) and has a choice of quad-core processors, up to i7 2.8GHz (4.0GHz Turbo).
The Surface Book pre-order specs just say "i5" or "i7". That's it.
Good point. The Skylake processors have a range of speeds and number of cores. I think the "twice as fast" remark involves the discrete GPU and that none of the models have a 4 core CPU because of high TDP.
My guess is i5-6300U @2.4GHz and i7-6600U @2.6GHz (both 2 core, both with Intel HD graphics 520), and Nvidia GPU equivalent to a GeForce 850M (GM107, but maybe a newer GM108 model that can handle GDDR5 memory), partly based on what Ryan Shrout says at http://www.pcper.com/news/Mobile/Microsoft-Surface-Book-2-1-Skylake-NVIDIA-Discrete-GPU-Announced.
>Take that, o fruity one!
>Bwahahahahaha
Lot of backslapping from the Redmond and partner/groupie crowd this morning. You would think they would learn to break out the cigars only after something has been in the market for awhile. Even the wildly successful (by Microsoft's standards) Surface Pro line has barely broken even over all these years (especially if you include its DOA retarded cousin the Surface and its losses).
Actually the Surface/x86 and similar pen equiped units are quite useable under Win7 (actually Win XP tablet edition or better) and have been used that way since 2003/4. The pen is extremly precise and the HWR is fully integrated on the OS level so you have a useable to (very) good "mouse and keyboard replacement" with it. No need for touch on a WACOM/NTRIG equiped unit
I like the hardware concept. Looks good.
Trouble is, none of my software runs on Windows. Having made the switch 10 years ago, I no longer have a need for any software on that OS, and the little bit of software that I do have, runs on earlier editions.
I might research this further. Provided they haven't done any UEFI monkey-business, it should be doable.
The UEFI monkey-business seems to be standard with Windows 10. A Windows 10 automatic update trashed my dual-boot Windows 10 / Linux Mint laptop this weekend, re-enabled UEFI, deleted grub and the dual boot and made it Windows 10 only. It also messed with the firmware making it insist on finding Windows 10 on bootup. Screw you Microsoft.
So no, I wouldn't bank on being able to install Linux on anything that comes with Windows 10 on it.
A Windows 10 automatic update trashed my dual-boot Windows 10 / Linux Mint laptop this weekend, re-enabled UEFI, deleted grub and the dual boot and made it Windows 10 only. It also messed with the firmware making it insist on finding Windows 10 on bootup. Screw you Microsoft.
Okay, only got your say-so on this, but ouch. That is nasty.
This is one of the things that concerns me going forward. I do have a recent laptop that will see me through the next few years, so I'm in no hurry, but other options would be nice.
Interestingly, I wonder how many of the down-voters actually read and understood what they were down-voting? My question was a simple enough one, and I was hoping someone who had tried with the earlier Surface (Pro) offerings with some anecdotal evidence of what running a non-Microsoft OS was like on a Microsoft-built device like the Surface Pro. Anyone tried it? What worked? What didn't work? (Or did someone see "Linux" and decide to go on the offensive?)
Found this guide for installing Arch Linux and this guide for Ubuntu, both on the earlier Surface Pro 3, which I suspect is the most similar.
So definitely seems doable, interestingly warranty is tied to the OS.
"That is the warranty that MS offers. Under EU law they have to provide a warranty for 2 years (and maybe up to 6), I doubt that EU law mentions an OS."
Why would EU law need to mention an OS? I'm pretty sure that EU law regarding warranty covers modified and unmodified product. Just as if you root your phone, chip your car etc it invalidates the warranty, I have no doubt that's it is legal for MS to invalidate warranty if the OS has been changed.
Whether this makes sense is another matter.
-->Interestingly, I wonder how many of the down-voters actually read and understood what they were down-voting?
There's a lot of people even downvoting simple and sensible questions nowadays. I guess this is why a number of websites now only allow upvotes and "flag for abuse". Gresham's Law applies to more than metal currency.
"I guess this is why a number of websites now only allow upvotes and "flag for abuse". "
I love that El Reg allows both up and downvotes. Sure, sometimes people downvote for no reason at all, and sometimes they downvote because they didn't understand what you wrote. But many times they downvote because they don't agree with you, and very often in these cases the downvoter will post to explain why.
Sure it leads to some slanging matches, but on the whole the discourse on El Reg is fairly civil compared to some other web platforms. And in any case much better than having only 'Like' as an option leading to artificial lovefests of "Ooh look I have 1000 'like's " with the naiveté of not realising that you might have had 10,000 'dislikes' if only there were such a button.
Downvote keeps it real
A Windows 10 automatic update trashed my dual-boot Windows 10 / Linux Mint laptop this weekend
It seems to me that that would count as an offence under the computer misuse act. If you have partitioned it, then and changed the settings then undoing this (without you asking/agreeing) is criminal.
I don't know if it is an offence or not, but it was certainly offensive. It was originally an 8.1 laptop and I'd set it up to dual boot with Linux Mint. Both Windows and Linux had cohabited without problems. Even the Windows 10 update didn't mess up the dual-boot. It is only after several weeks after a number of Windows 10 automatic updates that it trashed the laptop. To be specific, after the updates had finished, the laptop would only reboot into Windows. It completely skipped the grub menu offering a choice of booting into Linux or Windows. I repeatedly tried rebooting but it went straight into Windows 10 every time. I was sure Windows was doing a full shutdown too (not that hybrid shutdown) as it I was being prompted for the hardware level power on password.
I went into the computer settings and discovered that all the UEFI settings had been enabled again. I tried turning them off then rebooted the computer again... straight into Windows. Checked the UEFI settings and they'd been turned on AGAIN. I was getting rather *annoyed* by this stage so disable the UEFI settings again and reinstalled Linux Mint from scratch, giving it the entire hard drive and blowing Windows 10 off the hard drive. I wasn't going to be bullied into using Windows 10 as my sole OS. From a few searches, it appears I'm not alone in experiencing Windows 10 trashing dual-boot and grub. Apparently it may be possible to reinstall grub and to regain access to the lost Linux boot, but I'm not prepared to play games with Microsoft only for them to do the same thing again at some point.
Anyway, the laptop now runs Linux Mint exclusively. Curious side effect now though; I have to reboot the laptop TWICE. The first (cold boot) fails after a few seconds and the laptop hangs. Then I do a soft reboot (Ctrl, Alt, Del) and it boots into Linux. I'd hazard a guess that the Windows update has messed with the firmware telling to look for Windows 10 on bootup... I read something about that a while ago on El Reg about the firmware being made to run a particular EXE on C:\Windows\somewhere that in turn was able to turn the UEFI stuff back on again etc. It of course now fails as there is no longer a drive C:
It is bloody annoying. I was quite happy to let Linux Mint and Windows 10 coexist on the same machine and to use each as required, Microsoft has forced the issue by taking complete control of the laptop, and that is NOT ACCEPTABLE. So, now Windows 10 is gone.
I had also been looking into buying a new Windows computer to make dual-boot with Linux Mint. In view of what has happened I will definitely not buy another Windows computer, instead I'll look into computers that are either guaranteed to work with Linux or come pre-installed with it.
It doesn't bode well for people wanting to install Linux on Windows 10 computers going forward.
A Windows 10 automatic update trashed my dual-boot Windows 10 / Linux Mint laptop this weekend, re-enabled UEFI, deleted grub and the dual boot and made it Windows 10 only.
Since it is impossible to disable auto updates with consumer versions of Windows 10 it means that consumers will not be able to have dual boot machines - for long. It seems that MS have realised that desktop Linux is a threat and are trying to stop it.
This strikes me as anti competetive, I wonder how long before the EU jumps on them ?
Microsoft specifically require PC manufacturers to allow you to disable secure boot. It's only mandatory on their ARM kit. I imagine they'd be looking at antitrust issues otherwise.
Also, it's possible for Linux distributions to be signed to work with secure boot -
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html
Microsoft specifically require PC manufacturers to allow you to disable secure boot.
That was with Windows 8. Now, with Windows 10, they've boiled the frog because allowing disabling is up to the OEM. The OEM is Microsoft. Let's have a guess if they want their hardware running revenue-producing OS to run another OS.
I assume all those downvoters will now fix their vote and upvote me...? :)
"Let's have a guess if they want their hardware running revenue-producing OS to run another OS."
If you buy a Surface Book, you've already paid for Windows 10 as part of the price of the hardware.
Also, a question from someone who is ignorant on the ins and outs of UEFI, but surely the point of secure boot from a trusted source is that you don't allow any applications on the OS (which for all UEFI knows could be malware) to change anything in UEFI / boot sequence.
So how come Windows 10 updates can reconfigure UEFI to ignore or remove a Linux partition and default again to Windows 10?
> its market share has staggered up to 1.74% according to Gartner. It's doing worse then windows phone!
Maybe but Linux on Phone and Tablets (eg Android) is 80%.
Also it would be useful to know what that alleged 1.74% is measuring. Is it PCs and laptops sold with Linux installed (most Linux machines were originally sold with Windows or are built from parts)? Is it website accesses by Linux machines without NoScript going to particular sites (sites that may not be interesting to Linux users)? Is it sales revenue of OS sales?
The same problem applies to 'Server statistics' where the measurement is sales revenue. Most Linux servers are bought as a bare machine and then the distro of choice is installed thus those represent 0%.
It will likely run but why pay around 200€ for hardware that you can not use due to total lack of drivers and/or support software. Similar units without NTrig Digitiser exist or will soon come out if you need Skylake. And they will likely be either cheaper or offer options that this one lacks (user changeable battery etc)
It will likely run but why pay around 200€ for hardware that you can not use due to total lack of drivers and/or support software. Similar units without NTrig Digitiser exist or will soon come out if you need Skylake. And they will likely be either cheaper or offer options that this one lacks (user changeable battery etc)
Fair point. This is why I'm asking. The articles regarding the Surface Pro 3 seemed to suggest gaps in the keyboard support and a few other areas.
Often it's just a matter of time before these things get reverse engineered. I'm typing this on a 2008-model MacBook which has reverse engineered drivers for the nVidia chipset (including GPU, Ethernet) and Broadcom WiFi.
It has its quirks, but works fine most of the time. Good enough for my needs at home. It did alright as a work computer too, just the lack of USB ports drove me nuts and triggered me to buy the Toughbook that I now use there.
I'm not sure what the WiFi module is in the Surface devices, but they mention Intel graphics (except for dock which is nVidia) that have historically had a good track record for support in Linux. Touchscreen/stylus would be the other sticking-point, but as I say, often this is temporary, especially if the manufacturer is open to assisting a driver effort. (e.g. Wacom actually write the Linux driver for their devices.)
As for "Wacom and Linux drivers": To my best of knowledge the "official" drivers exist for the external grafik tablets NOT for the Penabled technology used in the S/P 1 and 2. The only Penabled drivers for "Linux" are the ones used by Samsung in the Note series and those are "Android", "Closed Source" and IIRC not available for purchase from third parties. There are "open source" drivers for the Penabled system but when I last looked they lacked basically all features that make a Wacom (or NTrig) pen. Basically the pen was recognized as a mouse (No pressure/tilt support, no button support etc)
The S/P3, S/P4 and S/3 all use NTrig and that is (partially) owned by a certain company in Redmond. That may or may not be a problem (MS actually DOES OpenSource and Linux stuff)
The WiFi module may be supported. The S/P2 and better can do MiraCast and that somewhat limits the choice of modules and makes an (open) documentation more liklely.
Grafik either is or soon will be supported for at least the "internal" chip. Intel does produce/support that after all. Any Skylake GPU new features may take a bit before they are available but I'd say they will.
Not sure about power saving modes. Linux is generally not up to the same capabilities as MS here when dealing with new Intel CPUs. I'd expect at least a delay until the systems can get to similar endurance levels / effective use. And depending on the drivers MS delivers with their own hardware they may not get there (MS knows the heat curves of the Surface better than outsiders and may run "optimized" throttlings)
I have a two month old Pro 3. I put the latest version of Fedora (22?) on, installation went well.
Keyboard and touch pad worked, touch worked but pen did not.
ALSO, and this is a biggy for me, It didn't toggle between Tablet and Desktop mode on removing/installing keyboard.
And, although I hate to say it, I found Windows 10 to be a much more polished overall experience than Fedora; I guess that's what keeps drawing me back to Windows. Just got to fix the privacy issues now.
Nice hardware, but Windows 10..... I just 'upgraded' my desktop Windows 7 box to Win 10 and even after installing Classic Shell to get rid of the horror that is the new start thing, the OS is still terrible. Big fat controls to be finger friendly, and I'm not on a touch screen machine so yuck, and the whole interface colour scheme style is painfully flat and ugly no matter how I set it. I can't believe I actually miss aero but at least it had some depth.
I don't think Apple needs to worry too much as MS isn't making a dent in the high price device market that Apple sits in and I bet that this machine will turn out to be fragile compared with a MacBook Pro which can take a serious beating and still keep on trucking. The ability to turn a laptop into a tablet isn't worth the danger of it turning permanently into a tablet because the connector fails.
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