A UK digital driving licence: What could possibly go wrong? Security vendors have welcomed plans to trial digital versions of the UK’s driving licence. The DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) is working on a digital version of its driving license for smartphones, to serve as an "add-on" to the existing plastic card. DVLA chief Oliver Morley tweeted a snapshot of the prototype …
I think all this digital fluff is in preparation for digital money only !
God help the local window cleaners or the friendly neighbour that want to help his elderly neighbour do a bit of local shopping but now won't be able to as the elderly lady ain't got any cash or internet access to transfer monies owed for the shopping !
So does he pay for it using her card and pin number oops that would be dangerous and against banking policies !
Nah, she'll have to starve to death !
Ah well at least they will save on pensions to pay out now, so it will save money - whooo a cost benefit solution !
What problem is this a solution for?
Mandatory ID cards?
If everyone has a smart phone, then everyone has their driving licence on them, so everyone effectively has an ID card on them. It is only a short step to make de facto into de jure and make it mandatory to show it at every possible opportunity. Electronic papers citizen!
"If everyone has a smart phone, then everyone has their driving licence on them, so everyone effectively has an ID card on them."
Except, of course, not everyone has a driving licence amd/or a smartphone.
On the other hand, this move towards more and more digitla ID/digital only documents falls down when you need to present two forms of identification, one must by photo ID at various places such banks when opening an account, or dealing with a deceased affairs and they must by original, printed hardcopy documents.
With no passport, no driving licence and all the household bills in my name, the only way to get around "the system" when my wife wanted to change her bank account to same bank as me, on the advice of the bank manager, we opened a joint account then made an application for my name to be removed from the new joint account. Then we opened another joint account so we eventually got what we wanted :-)
They missed a trick on the Governments Plan to mandatory ID cards when they removed the paper counterpart to the driving licence. They could have easily said that you needed to carry your plastic card driving licence whenever you are driving, They did this in NZ when they moved to a paperless driving licence (May 1999). but you only legally "HAVE" to show your driving licence to a policeman as ID when you are actually driving,,, BUT at about the same time they changed the drinking age and made it so that companies and individuals were fined large sums for serving under age drinkers so ID checks were increased drastically and the driving licence became the de-facto ID card.
Sunny California uses the driver's licence (-se?) as official ID. Those who don't drive can get an equivalent official ID from DMV if they want to. Quite a few places ask to see it, often if you're making a large purchase with a credit card, but it's not the intrusive thing that would have been the UK ID card. You hand over your credit card (or swipe it yourself, or occasionally put it in the chip-reader slot) so they already know who you are, then they ask to see ID, so you show then your licence, which looks official and the photo looks vaguely like you, and that's it. No logging into a surveillance database that you bought such and such an item at a store, it's very low key and there seems to be no push to make it worse.
Now, if the UK had started along those lines they could probably be introducing their huge database around now.
"What problem is this a solution for?
Let's see what device permissions the new app requires first. My guess is that it will want to read all your known associates, sorry, 'contacts', and it'll want location data too.
They'll have almost everyone who signs up effectively carrying around a trackable ID card which can be cross-referenced with ANPR cameras...
Still having trouble working out why they like this idea?
I read the title and jumped to the conclusion that the government was making it illegal to use a computer without having a license! Something like a cross between ECDL and a real driver's license, maybe. I got a few lines in before realising my mistake.
While part of me would sincerely love to see some users permanently banned from touching a computer, I think perhaps it's best that the government is not responsible for judging that one.
I've heard a a story from a biker who sent of his driving licence for renewal following a change of address. When the licence was returned his motorbike entitlement had vanished, leaving only cars etc. When he argued it DVLA claimed to never have known about his missing entitlement despite. He was forced to re-sit his test. His insurance then rocketed as he was now considered a new rider, and not one with 9 years of experience as was the case before.
As a result when I've changed my licence I always take a scan / photocopy of it before sending it off.
What could possible go wrong with a fully digital government database?...
I've recently had the misfortune of trying to sort out the V5 on my late wife's car. It took 3 months, more than a few letters and phone calls to get sorted and cost me a few thousand quid in payments and depreciation. Mainly because the DVLA lost one document and then rather then saying "we have a problem", it is their policy to do and say nothing.
However during this period every single person I spoke to had a story either first or second hand about the DVLA.
They had lost a workmate's husband's HGV licence so he could work, and they denied ever getting it despite there being evidence.
They lost my Fathers licence.
They returned the post office worker's daughters licence with a blokes picture on it.
When I got a private plate they spelt my name wrong
When moving cars they moved the plate to the wrong car and removed me from the V5 of my new one.
They lost the V5 of another co-worker, 6 months to sort
those are just the ones I can remember.
Plus will we mention the DVLA selling of personal details to parking fine issuers and insurance fraudsters which at best is legally a little grey.
So what could possibly go wrong with the DVLA having an electronic only system?
And of course this is not an ID card, not at all.
DVLA can sell your personal information to anyone they want to - read the small print on your licence application form. Nobody - not even other Government departments - are allowed to sell your details without permission (even if they do sometimes have to request permission after the event).
You have to give them permission to sell your details or you do not get a licence. Therefore, if you have a licence, they can sell your details.
@AC
"Nobody - not even other Government departments..."
Well, yes - the thing is, the DVLA is not a Government department.
They are an "Executive agency of the Department for Transport (DfT)"
IIRC, that gives them certain "flexibility" in the way they operate. (I take that to mean without consultation/being able to do things without going back to parliament)
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/driver-and-vehicle-licensing-agency/about
"We’ve been through a radical process of change moving away from a paper based organisation to a modern and highly efficient business."
@"You have to give them permission to sell your details or you do not get a licence. Therefore, if you have a licence, they can sell your details."
They get 2.50 quid a pop for each automated computer query, its a real profit center for them. Do you remember the Castrol advert? It would scan your number plate, pull up your DVLA details and display a personalized advert to you?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/28/dvla_castrol/
The excuse?: "DVLA provides vehicle information under strict contractual terms to the motor industry to ensure vehicles are fitted with the correct parts, including brakes, tyres and oil."
Actually the VIN number is how they order the exact parts. Nothing to do with the model type in the DVLA computer, that doesn't have the micro detail necessary and the car manufacturer didn't know the license plate number when they made the car. It doesn't link up.
So now your driving license details will be added? The photograph too? The face metrics used for Facebook lookup? So much private data sold by government.
"Nobody - not even other Government departments - are allowed to sell your details without permission (even if they do sometimes have to request permission after the event)."
Can you tell that to the NHS / HSCIS (NHS Digital) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/20/one_million_patients_have_opted_out_of_caredata/ who want to give the most personal of data to any company willing to pay for it. WITHOUT any informed consent.
Yep. I am selling my late father's car and private registration, and find the DVLA very efficient at taking money off me for this and that, but not at all helpful when I need for info. When I phoned, I hung on for a bit, was told, we are experiencing high call rates, so goodbye' and was hung up on from the auto-voice. I was thrilled.
@Olaf
A few years ago I had a personalised plate too, a very, very valuable one (think 6 digits), which a certain nationally-advertising registration company was trying to acquire. I changed my car, and tried to transfer the registration. Thanks to DVLA 'cockups', I was 're-issued' the old vehicles' previous private registration - which had previously been transferred to the prior owner's new vehicle - and 'lost' my registration.
During the process of trying to resolve it, DVLA managed to 'sell' it to the registration company... last time I looked, it was assigned to a Ford Mondeo.
DVLA refused to accept any responsibility.
Still, at least when I had had my plate cloned a couple of years previously (and fitted to an identical make, model, and colour of car), they contacted me before providing my details to the Police; "I", or rather my vehicle - had been caught on camera in excess of 100mph on the A34. As it was, I could prove that my car was in a dealers workshop at the time, and therefore it wasn't me or my vehicle.
It's a complete myth that private sector employees are all competent and that public sector ones are not. I've had personal experience of both, and the main difference I can see is that if a private sector operation is run too badly, it tends to go out of business, whereas public sector organisations run badly just carry on business as usual. Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that in teh majority of cases, it's incompetence in the higher ups of any organistion (so signing off on new, but useless systems, or indulging in 'new broom' policies just to try to impress on all as to who is boss - et cetera, et cetera) that cause the majority of problems. If the system's broke or unfit for purpose, how is a mere minion supposed to make it work right?
This has happened to a lot of people who had that entitlement wiped.
I also had that issue, paper licence clearly showed I had entitlement to ride bikes, switched to photo licence on change of address in 2006 and lo and behold an entitlement I had since Nov 1992 had disappeared.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/removal_of_entitlements_and_lack
Surely the DVLA have a duty under the DPA (or the data protection directive as it is now) (article 6) to
Personal data may be processed only insofar as it is adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to the purposes for which they are collected and/or further processed. The data must be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date; every reasonable step must be taken to ensure that data which are inaccurate or incomplete, having regard to the purposes for which they were collected or for which they are further processed, are erased or rectified.
If they accidentally remove someone's license entitlements, then they have breached the directive, and must correct this as soon as they have been notified.
Has there been any cases of the DVLA been taken to court over the DPA?
@ Tim Warren RE: Biker change of address
Previously when I've moved house I've written my new address on the paper part of my license and popped it in the post to Swansea. An updated paper copy arrived a week or two later. Nice and easy.
When I last moved (roughly three years ago) I thought I would use the online "prove your identity with your passport" way of changing the address on my Driving License in the hope it would save me a stamp. (Yes, I know, it's funny *now*).
I went through all sorts of hoops and steps to prove I am the person on the license including all my passport details (now helpfully and permanently linked to my Driving License). Eventually it came back and said "Thank you, your address has been changed. We now need you to return your old paper license in the post - you are obliged to do this.".
FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL
Icon -> "WFT?" "FAIL" "Big Brother" "Terminator" "Facepalm" are all relevant here. Unfortunately there isn't a "Quietly weeping while hitting head against keyboard" icon.
I had to give up my licence for a year after a seizure. Once medically cleared for my full Till-70 licence again, it took them a handful of attempts to get it back to me with the correct entitlements. One of the versions finally had the right categories on, but for car, minibus and light goods vehicles only the "with trailer" codes were listed. When I rang DVLA to check if I should be concerned, not having specced a tow bar on the car I'd just ordered, they admitted that this was an impossible combination and that there were several departments that were able to authorise a reissue. The advisor also said she could see no record of the issue number of the licence I had in front of me, and that I definitely should not have the other (also wrong) version I had next to it as they never issued a licence until the previous one was returned to them.
That was just under 10 years ago - I'm getting ready for the same shenanigans when renewing the photo card in the next month...
Don't bother MrT
I parked at the back of the supermarket car park. I wasn't feeling too well. By the time my wife came out there were six cars around me. This is what I call "the clumping syndrome". Two of them drove in with their heads in their laps. Ms Mobile.
If you park a van diagonally across 6 parking spaces you'll be fine.
I'm the original victim of ID fraud, courtesy of the DVLA. I'm no saint. 30+ years ago I had two DUI's in one week when my father died. No excuse but it happened. 20 years ago me & the missus are pottering along the top of the A55 in a van with "Legalise Brocholli" written in mirror writing on the front of our van. Our lives changed. Got a pull by the Heddlu. Mirth and we're on our way. Ten minutes later they pull me up again. Apparently I'm a disqualified driver.
The police, at the station, ask me if they can keep my licence. Biggest mistake of my life. DVLA denied all knowledge of issuing it. According to records I'm now 3 years into a 5 year ban for death by reckless driving. The police even turned up at court to testify they had seen a licence but it was sent back to Swansea so their evidence was inadmissible.
I dunno what happened in court. They argued, in Welsh. No translator. Probation officer laid into me about "the bollox" of claiming ID fraud. I filled out all her forms then refused to sign as my name wasn't Gavin.
I subsequently discovered who was using my licence but court records are only retained for 3 years.
I scan my licence as well.
Eight years ago I was starting an overtake on my motorbike. A revoked driver performed a u-turn. All this shit got dragged up again
There's only one thing worse than snooping, it's having to live your life apologising for someone else's mistake - and being forced to do it.
Long live the DVLA!
On occasions, it is sometimes of great benefit to "lose" your licence when getting renewals, as DVLA will not accept a photocopy as any form of proof whatsoever. My friend found this out to their cost and strangely enough, again, it was the motorbike bit that had been wiped.
The lesson here, is never to give up your licence until the new one has been issued correctly.
Perhaps one way of solving this, is to recommend everyone rings up the DVLA prior to sending the documents back, to enquire as to what the computer is showing. Once DVLA goes into meltdown they just might consider revising their obviously flawed processes.
"Paco Garcia, CTO of UK identity verification startup Yoti, said (somewhat excitedly, as he'd never been asked for a soundbite before) that "digital driving licences had the potential to make identification process easier and more time efficient, whilst keeping the end user secure. The speculative plans from the DVLA to potentially introduce digital driving licenses showcases the ever-evolving need for innovative solutions within the online space.""
Wow. What insight.
Unfortunately, if you Google "Yoti" and click on the About Yoti link that Google returns, it would seem that the guru believes in security through obscurity [also cached in dropbox].
Edit: given the current political climate, is it really wise for them to claim:
We use the best facial recognition technology avaliable - the same used by European border control.
This has all the hallmarks of another solution looking for a problem. Ignoring the complete inability of government to secure data on this (or indeed any) scale, how could this possibly be seen to advance anything?
So you have a copy of your license on your smartphone, wow, except someone has nicked your phone and their mate who looks a bit like you is now flashing your ID when stopped by Police. That's going to come out well isn't it?
It's not like you can prove that the image/Scancode/page you are showing a shopkeeper when trying to buy alcohol could have been faked up in the school IT room is it.
Bunch of failed apprentice muppets
"And does having a flat battery count as "failure to produce valid documents" ?"
Look beyond such pitfalls, and remember that for the end user there will be "increased convenience". They will achieve this by coupling the digital licence "with the increased use of biometric, multi-factor and secondary authentication techniques".
So when you show your digital licence (or fail to do so because of a flat battery) you may also need to supply a secondary form of identity, or do something else to help authenticate your identity.
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