Q: Is it wrong to dress as a crusader for an England match? The BBC has simultaneously proved Betteridge's law of headlines and got the Daily Mail into a right tizz with an interactive piece entitled "Is it wrong to dress as a crusader for an England match?" The question arises ahead of the forthcoming Euro 2016 tournament as the result of some England footie fans' penchant for donning …
Are they dressed as crusaders, or just as a stereotyped version of a well-equipped English soldiery of a particular period? It might well be consistent with what the English wore when crusadering, but I'd have thought that they must have fought some other wars here and there in not dissimilar garb.
Seriously, who else would want to walk around with one ??????
Flame suit on: check!
British passport in pocket: check!
Union Jack in the toilet as emergency toilet paper*:check!
*Yes, I have one! it so happens that somebody else bought one and when I saw that thing lying around I thought the best place for it would be either the bin or the WC ... it does come in handy from time to time ... don't worry too much, though, the French flag is hanging just beside it ... I really need a stars, stripes, and banner-thingy from our USians cousins, to, you know, have a set.
DISCLAIMER: I know you are referring to St George's cross thingy, but I do not collect flags from that small a "nation".
There are plenty of Brits who see St George's cross as the rallying banner of violent racist football hooligans that I would be surprised if there weren't those who would take offence at those dressed in full Crusader garb, both here and abroad.
What exactly are they trying to tell us when they do that?
It doesn't 't seem unlike dressing up as a KKK member or marching down the street dressed as Nazis, carrying guns, and wearing swastikas.
Such things may be acceptable in America where free speech and the right to hate is protected by the constitution and upheld as American virtues but this is Europe where we have greater sympathies for those harmed by hatred.
What I don't get is the connection between a Saint, who is a Saint because the story says that he was martyred after dying for refusing to recant Christianity, is all about religion. But England is effectively (if not officially) a secular nation and a football fan who wears the St.George cross will usually have no interest in religion.
The crusades, a war fought by Europeans in the Levant "holy land" at the behest of the aristocracy and the royal classes, their peasant foot-soldiers either mercenary or devoutly religious. The three lions emblem belonging to royalty, not the people.
A thousand years being owned by a tiny faction that were by legacy of conquering "nobles" has left the real people without any genuine identifying emblems. Had we not been stuck on the same island as the seat of power then we would have declared independence long since.
But the nation didn't do as the French did, and cut their fucking heads off.
@ Jason
Really? You don't see it in the context that it is taken in? You genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag? That's a real shame and a pity, as it kind of means they're winning if that's the case.
I'm not jingoistic. I'm certainly not racist or a hooligan. Yet I go out every St George's Day with a few pals for some ales and a giggle, see friendly folk dressed in garb (and to be fair some nutjobs) and have yet to see trouble or violence. You appear to spouting opinion as fact.
You don't see it in the context that it is taken in?
I don't understand the context at all, what it is meant to suggest to me or others. Is Crusader meant to signify some innate Englishness or aspect of English character? If so I don't know what, but would worry as to what that was meant to be.
Fans going to Euro 2016 havea right to dress as Crusaders if they want. I am simply wondering why they would want to.
You genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag?
No, and I did not say that, but there is an undeniable correlation between racists and their rallying around St George's flag. There is also a faction of football fans who do deliberately seek to cause offence and trouble.
@Jason
I don't understand the context at all.
You said "There are plenty of Brits who see St George's cross as the rallying banner of violent racist football hooligans" and I asked if you genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag. That's the context. Waving a England flag at a football, rugby or cricket match etc does not equate to a outpouring of racist thuggery. The context of dressing up a crusader at the above sporting events is nothing more than an extension of this; I believe you know that.
In reply to me asking if you genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag;
"I did not say that, but there is an undeniable correlation between racists and their rallying around St George's flag."
Yet you stated;
"It doesn't 't seem unlike dressing up as a KKK member or marching down the street dressed as Nazis, carrying guns, and wearing swastikas." which to me kind of does suggest you see a hoolligan and/or racist hence the question; you made the link there, not me.
And I won't even get bother starting on your 'undeniable correlation' statement. That's just too easy for these boards...
Err what matey??
So there are some poor, shy, nervous folk that are so 'whatever' that the sight of my flag (the English one) starts a rumbling that results in their whole world falling down.
Has it occured to you that someone who chooses to don the flag in a manner that suits them could be, like you know a proud English[wo]man???
I suspect that they are not trying to tell you anything. Btw who do you think is 'harmed by the hatred' of a footie or rugby fan donning the flag in some fashion?
Granted things flag-related are different in Europe to the US of A (thank cluck for that), generally speaking methinks the hysteria quotient is a little more grown-up in blighty.
BTW my American mother-in-law isn't that far from being a Puritan 'enthusiast', so I know quite a lot of what I talk.
Have a nice day y'all.
Jay
No, I just fail to make a distinction between those who argue for religion and those who argue for a nation. Both are social constructs with little real value or meaning. Chanting Eng-Ger-Land is no more/less offensive than "Allahu Akbar" - its a matter of context.
The wearing of Crusader colours is no more offensive, in and of itself, than the wearing of a crucifix; people choose to be offended by all sorts of things, and sometimes people choose to cause offence through specific behaviour.
There is, for me, a clear parallel between religion and patriotism being used as vehicles for both rebutting and inflicting offence.
So, no, its not wrong to dress a crusader at an England match *unless* you are doing it *specifically* to cause offence, which is no different to touting religious iconography in the same way.
"My country, right or wrong" is just as extreme (and stupid) a statement as "Whatever my god wills".
"...or marching down the street dressed as Nazis, carrying guns, and wearing swastikas."
Never been to a WW2 recreation event then? Plenty of people dressed as Japanese, US, British and German troop uniforms. That's just a much entertainment to people as a football match. You don't don the uniform of a genocidal master race without considering it carefully.
Goes perfectly with adopting 'The Great Escape', then (which presumably predicted losing in a penalty shoot out).
(At work - in '98 - I told a Scottish manager that my Dad was Scottish and always tried to get me to support Scotland - but that I preferred to support a team that had a chance of winning.
Of course, I was winding him up. And even if England did have a chance, those twats who thought 'The Great Escape' was something glorious were too embarrassing.
'The Great Escape' was a film about the British bending over for their American masters. It's a toss-up between who are the more toe-curlingly pathetic: England supporters, or the British Government).
I think people are getting confused here, surely you mean the criminally unappreciated 1951 film Victor's Greatest Caper where, in an effort to make like at the prison camp a bit more pleasant, the Flight Lieutenant Victor E. Roll and his plucky POWs challenge the prison guards to a football tournament. However the camp commandant is horrified to learn that the exercise yard is not big enough for an officially recognised football pitch and, being the stickler for proper rules and procedures that he is, is forced to demolish three fences in order to accommodate the playing field.
The night before the match is due to start, the POWs escape from the prison camp under the watchful eye of the guards by disguising themselves as corner flags.
It's not all bad news for the guards though - effectively unchallenged, they romp home to first place in the tournament.
I think it would be more enlightening to point out to the lager swilling football louts draped in a st george cross that was essentially Palestinian, or 'arab' for better effect; (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George)
Such associations of flag and certain countrymen still make me embarrassed, if someone asks where i'm from I say Britain
Fan's could wear the actual England kit instead.
All jokes aside, it's such a shame that we've come to the point where it is incredibly hard to distinguish between genuine patriotism and hard/extreme right propaganda.
Interestingly, if you replace the costume's name (i.e. "Crusader") with "Knight of Agincourt" for example, then the whole premise becomes perfectly acceptable. You couldn't do that with an SS uniform. Or a Khmer Rouge garb. Or an ISIS militia outfit. By this logic, we're assuming Italy will consider banning all Roman costumes as well?
The point being that an overly PC idiot has decided to make a point that somehow links a religious-based antiquity with very real problems we are facing today. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it is shameful that this even made the news. Hate crimes are the bane of society and statements like these only serve to drive the wedge further between OUR communities.
Yeah, but I think he wanted to take a live one.
What's wrong with that? How about a goat? Long established tradition in Cologne…
Fortunately I don't think Mongolia qualified so there'll be no Genghis Kahn lookalikes.....
Russian supporters would certainly not be amused. Nor Chinese ones, I suppose.
How about Roman von Ungern-Sternberg cosplay?
I really must come from a different planet or something, I honestly cannot see how anyone can take offense for someone else playing dressing up in a style that is over 500 years old. That would be close to 20 generations ago. If your taking offense over that, you need your head read!
What next, being offended at the Danes for dressing up as Vikings (Vikings raped and pillaged large parts of Western Europe for centuries! boo-hiss!), or being offended at the Italians when they dress up as roman legionaries (the romans conquered Europe killing thousands on the way! Evil bastards!)?
Utter tosh!
You know that there are people whose sole occupation it is to be offended on behalf of others then making sure everything is leveled down to whatever wasteland of unoffensive white noise (oops, did I just emit a racist microaggression?) uniformity they imagine their perfect world to be...
Also, it's good to know that the Ottoman expedition to Vienna was actually a multicultural encounter that turned sour due to a lack of Austrian hospitality....
> Also, it's good to know that the Ottoman expedition to Vienna was actually a multicultural encounter that turned sour due to a lack of Austrian hospitality....
But it did lead to the invention of the croissant which can be considered to be a good thing.
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2024
