back to article No means no: Windows 10 nagware's red X will stop update – Microsoft

Microsoft will change the controversial way it has been force-feeding people Windows 10 upgrades. The Redmond spreadsheet maker said that when someone clicks on the red "X" to close its infamous your-Windows-10-upgrade-is-ready pop-up, they will actually hold off the installation rather than accept it. One-way dialog ... The …

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  1. Jan Hargreaves

    "The new experience has clearer options to upgrade now, choose a time, or decline the free offer," Myerson said in a statement to The Register.

    "If the red-X is selected on this new dialog, it will dismiss the dialog box and we will notify the device again in a few days."

    - Sorry but what has changed? It is not clear at all. Where is the button saying I don't want to upgrade or No Thanks?

    - Clicking the red x closes the window - how is it intuitive that this means you are declining the offer?

    - So you are declining the offer for a few days then they offer it to you again?

    FFS... I was a Macintosh user from around 1992 to 2005. I then switched to Windows but this year I'm planning to switch back. This sort of behaviour is driving users away and they STILL can't see it.

    1. a_yank_lurker

      @jan Hargreaves - Slurp's behavior has driven away former paying customers and is making many others consider their options. I personally know of several in both camps. W7 has a few more years so many can linger on without making a final move for awhile.

    2. veti Silver badge

      It's different, because dismissing the dialogue box does not mean "OK" (something that, according to Microsoft's own UI design rules for Windows, should NEVER EVER have been allowed to happen in the first place). Also because there is - if you actually read the message in full - a transparent way to cancel the whole thing, which there wasn't in the previous generation.

      Too little, too late. ("Having to read the message in full" is still a pretty outrageous requirement.) But it is something.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: "according to Microsoft's own UI design rules"

        Indeed, but those rules were not top priority when deciding the functionality of the dialog box.

        The only way to explain the decision to make the 'X' actually accept the upgrade is to consider that, when discussing that point, it was decided to ignore the UI rules in favor of a higher priority - getting Windows 1 0 out on another machine.

        Because after a full year of free upgrade availability, this latest version has still not even hit 20% market share (as of this writing).

        There is no way to explain that away other than with the words "dismal failure".

        1. Test Man

          Re: "according to Microsoft's own UI design rules"

          The X on the old dialog was dismissing the dialog without change. The thing is the upgrade wasn't scheduled by any action in that dialog box, it was automatically scheduled before that dialog box appeared, that's why the X doesn't cancel the schedule.

          In other words, Microsoft WERE following the UI design rules but were definitely bending the rules in order to get more upgrades scheduled.

          Instead of tricking users, Microsoft have stopped setting the schedule before the dialog appears, and now explicitly sets the schedule IN the dialog box, when someone clicks the "Upgrade now" button . Therefore clicking X will dismiss the dialog and an upgrade won't be scheduled.

      2. Gotno iShit Wantno iShit

        @veti

        I agree, this is now correct behaviour. The dialog presents options do, schedule or FOAD. Cancelling the dialog means a choice has not been made and so asking again is the correct behaviour. Those saying cancel should mean FOAD are as bad as Microsoft in making cancel=do. But haters are gonna hate and this is probably going to be a downvote record for me.

      3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        "It's different, because dismissing the dialogue box does not mean "OK" (something that, according to Microsoft's own UI design rules for Windows, should NEVER EVER have been allowed to happen in the first place)"

        Absolutely this!!!!!

        The fact it's even possible means all those people getting spammy/malicious pop-ups in browsers now have no idea if it's safe to dismiss them with the X/Close button.

    3. oiseau
      Linux

      "I then switched to Windows ..."

      Why in heaven's name would you ever do such a terrible thing to yourself?

      1. Anonymous Coward
    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      FFS... I was a Macintosh user from around 1992 to 2005. I then switched to Windows but this year I'm planning to switch back. This sort of behaviour is driving users away and they STILL can't see it.

      Interesting - that's around the time I reluctantly bought a MacBook for research, thus using a Mac for the second time. The first time was at work in the 90s, but I really didn't get on with OS 9 so my expectations were low (also because I used Linux at home). I wasn't prepared for how good OS X was, but I've stuck with OSX since, and so have my customers - none want to switch back.

      That said, OSX is IMHO strictly a desktop OS, I'm not a massive fan of OSX server when compared to what you can do with Linux and the BSDs.

      This is why I sort of understand Microsoft's desperation. By making MSOOXML an ISO standard (OK, a pretend one, but they had to partially open the hatch here) they've opened the door to competition on the Office front. Worse, ODF is already an EU government standard, and you can get free software that does the job just fine unless you're in the minority that uses deep, complex spreadsheets. On the OS side, there are desktops around that are cheaper, and that have a better integration with mobile, both at a better price point. Leaving aside for a moment the price of personal information, you can get by with what Google offers, or you can go to the Apple camp which costs more in hardware, but professional software is far cheaper and far more user friendly (read: more efficient) which makes for a favourable TCO.

      Next, they botched their eternal get-out clause. Before that fateful day, if something didn't work it was always you fault for buying the wrong hardware. Linux users already knew that to be a load of baloney, but at the golf course level the excuse worked. Unfortunately, they then brought out a device where they fully controlled both the hardware and the software, at a price point where it would only ever land on the desk of a decision maker - and they STILL couldn't get things to work properly. Oops..

      If Microsoft don't get people locked into a subscription model for both OS and Office pretty damn quick they will lose all their victims customers to the more appealing alternatives for the two most important sources of income for the company. In other words, it's now of never. That's also why they're cosying up to Linux - notice that they don't enhance any Linux components, but try to get you to run their stuff on it? The recent .NET offering is a good example of that: abandon established frameworks, please use ours. I'd be very, VERY careful with that.

      In summary, Microsoft do not have much of a choice. And thus, neither have you if you want to continue suffering Windows. You will either have to go along with it all - or do what many others have already done. Given the current stress levels, it is unlikely that those who jump ship will ever return to Windows. It's a good thing they still have golf buddies, "friendly" government officials and an advertising budget that can buy favourable press..

    5. TVU Silver badge

      "FFS... I was a Macintosh user from around 1992 to 2005. I then switched to Windows but this year I'm planning to switch back. This sort of behaviour is driving users away and they STILL can't see it."

      I agree because what happened was unethical trickery since the top right 'x' symbol pretty much universally means 'Close this box' and not 'Please automatically install the Windows 10 NSA Privacy Intrusion Special Edition operating system'.

      At least they appear to be amending their bad ways but it took a shed load of criticism to get them to do the right thing. Can't wait until the joyous end of their free upgrade offer.

  2. raving angry loony

    Postpone?

    No, 'X' means "fucking cancel it". It does not mean "postpone", it does not mean "nag me again".

    What they need is a "fuck off and die" button. Not that they'll ever provide the obvious. Their "anything goes" attitude to forcing people to "upgrade" to Windows 10 has gone from silly, to stupid, to annoying, to downright evil.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: Postpone?

      "No, 'X' means "fucking cancel it". It does not mean "postpone", it does not mean "nag me again"."

      Not if "X" ALSO means "I want to get pwned." I mean, how soon will Microsoft stop Win7 updates to "encourage" upgrading? It's not like their deadline's set in stone by contract, is it?

    2. dave 81

      Re: Postpone?

      GRC - Never10.

      Nuff said.

    3. Stuart Castle Silver badge

      Re: Postpone?

      No, the "X" can mean one of two things. Bring up another dialog (usually "Are you sure" but not limited to that), or cancel it. That is what (IIRC) is defined in the UI guidelines, and certainly how most Windows and Application dialogs function. It is, therefore, reasonable for the user to assume that the Windows 10 upgrade prompt will act the same way.

      It doesn't mean "Oh, Go ahead. I want Windows 10." as Microsoft appear to think. There is also no requirement that the user read the full text of the dialog before hitting it.

      I have to admit, I like Windows 10. Not as much as 7, but certainly more than 8. I don't like the tracking it does by default, and I don't like the way Microsoft are trying to foist it on their users. I feel if they are going to offer a free OS, they should do it the way Apple have. Apple require that users take a very definite series of actions to download any upgrades. They require that you go to the App Store, sign in (if you haven't already) then go to the OS Upgrade page, and click Install. Finally, they need to run the Installer manually. There is no way the user is going to accidentally upgrade their machine to an OS that potentially doesn't work, and certainly no way they are going to switch on the computer to find it's been upgraded (possibly torpedoing some software they need in the process).

      I don't particularly like the Windows App Store, but I'm not opposed to Microsoft using it in the same way Apple do to provide OS upgrades.

      That said, I run Windows 10. I'm also on the fast ring insider preview, so my computer gets upgraded every couple of weeks, regardless of whether I want it to or not. I'm an experience computer user though. I usually know what to do if my computer software (Windows or any application) fails as a result of a bad upgrade. if I don't know, I can usually work it out or find it out quite quickly. I'm also not in the position where I rely on my computer for my business, so I won't be out of pocket if it's off line for a few days while I fix it.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Postpone?

      I did find out one thing over the last week. You aren't allowed to set your password to "FuckYouMicrosoft" on your Microsoft account.

      No joke.

  3. Ole Juul
    Linux

    Just say NO

    (my personal opinion, of course)

    1. raving angry loony

      Re: Just say NO

      Sadly, folks without some level of more advanced technical skills CANNOT "just say NO". That's the main problem here.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just say NO

        No, it's part of the problem. The other is Microsoft not taking no for an answer.

      2. wolfetone Silver badge
        Coat

        Re: Just say NO

        "Sadly, folks without some level of more advanced technical skills CANNOT "just say NO". That's the main problem here."

        But couldn't they just go to Apple? You know, because it "just works"?

      3. raving angry loony

        Re: Just say NO

        To the folks who voted down (both of you) Sadly, folks without some level of more advanced technical skills CANNOT "just say NO". That's the main problem here.

        Could you perhaps expand on why you thought the post was shit? I'm curious as to what might pass for logic in such a decision.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. Halcin
    Big Brother

    Too little, too late.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Begun, the lawsuits have.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
        Trollface

        Yup, and what a timely coincidence.

        I'm sure the two are absolutely not, in any way whatsoever, related.

      2. cybersaur

        Windows 10 lawsuits

        Microsoft invited lawsuits when their software started acting like malware.

  5. Palpy

    Yes, I know, but Apple --

    -- has a similar upgrade-to-Yosemite dialog which cannot be permanently dismissed. Except by disabling automatic updates. Unless I'm mistaken.

    Of course, the Linuxian method appears to humbly offer an update icon, which never does anything without asking first. Pah! But what do expect from free operating systems?

    1. a_yank_lurker

      Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

      My very limited experience with Apple is that updates are handled much more gracefully than I have ever seen with Slurp. Linux probably does updates and upgrades the best way; notify the user with a list of all the packages to be updated and wait for permission.

    2. Montreal Sean

      Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

      Apple's upgrade notification is just that, a notification.

      If you dismiss it it goes away. It comes back after a few days or weeks, but it never tries to install itself.

      Is it annoying? Yes, because you should be able to tell it not to bother you again.

      So, not as nice as Linux but way ahead of MS.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

        "If you dismiss it it goes away. It comes back after a few days or weeks, but it never tries to install itself."

        Well that's bullshit. Every fecking day I go to my iPhone and it'll say "Oh I need to update. Do you want me to update?". So you press later, then it wants to know a time when it can remind you.

        I AM THE ONE WHO TELLS YOU TO UPDATE!!!

        1. Fitz_

          Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

          "Well that's bullshit. Every fecking day I go to my iPhone and it'll say "Oh I need to update. Do you want me to update?". So you press later, then it wants to know a time when it can remind you."

          This is happening because it's already downloaded the update and is wanting you to kick off the installer. If you don't want this to happen:

          Settings -> iTunes & App Store -> Turn off 'Updates' to prevent updates automatically downloading in the background.

          After that, Settings -> General -> Storage -> Manage Storage -> tap the update, delete it.

          It won't bug you any more.

    3. Charles 9

      Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

      "Of course, the Linuxian method appears to humbly offer an update icon, which never does anything without asking first."

      But then Sid Stupid doesn't realize this, the update goes uninstalled, and he gets pwned due to a wild exploit the update would've quashed. What's one of the common headlines here at El Reg? People get pwned because updates go uninstalled.So we have hard evidence of people really being that stupid, so what do you do in such an environment where prompting doesn't get results?

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

        "But then Sid Stupid doesn't realize this, the update goes uninstalled, and he gets pwned due to a wild exploit the update would've quashed."

        There are a couple of issues here.

        Firstly, IME, Windows updates take a very long time to install and give the user very little feedback if they want to see it whereas Linux updates, again IME, are applied quickly and, if you're interested, tell you what's going on. This is exacerbated by Windows updates being saved up for big monthly releases while Limux updates are released as available so the updates, although more numerous, are individually smaller.

        Secondly Linux updates do not call for reboots. If software for an individual service is updated the service is stopped and restarted whilst the rest of the system continues to run. Even if the kernel is updated the original kernel is left in place and running until such time as the user finds it convenient to reboot in order to run the new kernel - in some distributions there are even live kernel updates.

        Taken together these mean that there's no particular incentive to bypass Linux updates.

      2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

        Re: Charles 9

        Eh? You can, and generally should, set Linux to automatically install security updates.

        Unlike the "new Microsoft", that does just that patches stuff without major changes (like the old MS). If you actually want to do the equivalent of an OS upgrade you can (though it is not 100% successful in my experience when unusual partitioning / RAID is in use, etc). You are warned to back up and be sure before starting, etc, etc. Or you can simply tell it never to offer such an upgrade again.

    4. Gene Cash Silver badge

      Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

      > Apple has a similar upgrade-to-Yosemite dialog which cannot be permanently dismissed. Except by disabling automatic updates. Unless I'm mistaken.

      Android is the same way. My Nexus 6P constantly hammered me about an update, which I couldn't accept because the phone is rooted. The only way I could stop it was by denying notification privileges to Android Play. Very annoying.

    5. I am the Walrus

      Re: Yes, I know, but Apple --

      Is that really happening to you? From my experience OSX will only give you notifications of point updates to the current version of the OS you're using regularly. It won't harass you with notifications that there's a new version of the OS unless you actually go to the Store, where it's then featured quite boldly. It may have changed as Apple try to get people who aren't currently on El Capitan to upgrade so I don't know for sure but as I said, I've never seen this before and I camped on both Snow Leopard and Mavericks for a very long time.

      1. M7S

        Bad Apple

        Alas Apple are not immune from unwanted consequences and then being arrogant about it. The upgrade of their OS to Yosemite wiped the Server applications from our test machine. The one sold as a server (before they deleted the line as well) with that software installed as standard.

    6. tekHedd

      "Control" was a differentiator.

      I liked the control I had in Windows where I didn't have it so much with Apple. Microsoft removed my biggest objection with GWX and their spyware. Had my Macbook for a few months now and I've never liked a computer better. Sure I lose some control and updates are pushed somewhat aggressively, but it's not like MS is better and OSX comes with a proper shell. And git comes preinstalled.

      The way I see it, MS forced me to buy a Mac.

  6. Jeffrey Nonken

    If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    GWX Control Panel FTW. I have it installed pretty much everywhere.

  7. Mark 85

    "Sir, the Klingons wish to parley. They say they are changing their ways."

    "I don't believe them, Chekov."

    "But sir, they promised."

    "A rattlesnake is still a rattlesnake. Shields up, power up all phasers and photon torpedoes."

  8. Carl D

    You should have included Terry Myerson's full statement in the article.

    "We started our journey with Windows 10 with a clear goal to move people from needing Windows to choosing Windows to loving Windows. Towards this goal, this week we’ll launch a new upgrade experience for millions of PCs around the world. The new experience has clearer options to upgrade now, choose a time, or decline the free offer. If the red-x is selected on this new dialog, it will dismiss the dialog box and we will notify the device again in a few days. We continue to recommend all of our customers upgrade to Windows 10 before the free upgrade offer expires on July 29."

    Loving Windows? Yeah, right. Just shows how out of touch Terry and his ilk are these days.

    Love is supposed to mean two people loving each other. At least it used to. It is not meant to apply to anything else. Especially computer operating systems.

    Liking Windows? Maybe. But, MS's behaviour over the past 12 months with Windows 10 makes it difficult to even do that.

    And, we also have this quote:

    " If the red-x is selected on this new dialog, it will dismiss the dialog box and we will notify the device again in a few days."

    In other words, they still won't take NO for an answer. F_ off and die, MS.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Linux

      I LOVE Italian food.

      I HATE Windows10

      Insisting love is only for people is a very Eastern European outlook, where are you from Carl?? Is BREXIT worrying you??

      I love penguins - they taste like chicken.

      1. Carl D

        Hi, Ian.

        I was born in Halifax, Yorkshire, England but I was brought to Perth, Western Australia in 1961 when I was 4 years old.

        Been here ever since except for a short 2 week holiday to Singapore and Penang in 1977.

        And - NOTHING will ever make me love Windows 10. But, I'm really beginning to LIKE Linux Mint.

        Just waiting for the new Linux Mint 18 "Sarah" to get out of Beta testing and I'll be installing it (at least with Linux they make a genuine effort to make it as bug free as possible before releasing it).

    2. hplasm
      Gimp

      Love Windows-

      Or it will stalk you.

      And rape your computer if you don't give in.

      Nice.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Big Brother

      Learn to love Windows 10... is that like learning to love Big Brother?

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      "We started our journey with Windows 10 with a clear goal to move people from needing Windows to choosing Windows to loving Windows."

      It seems to have moved some people from needing Windows to realising they don't need Windows.

      1. H in The Hague

        "It seems to have moved some people from needing Windows to realising they don't need Windows."

        Yup. After 25 years or so of using Windows one of my colleagues has just bought a MacBook Pro.

        I've just rejuvenated an old XP laptook by installing Ubuntu on it and that looks pretty good. Might be an option for our production environment, just have to sort out the proprietary software we use.

        Neither of us would have considered those alternatives to Windows had it not been for the W10 nagware. Somehow that seems a strange marketing approach by MS.

    5. Nolveys

      You should give Terry Myerson credit where it's due, it's got to be hard to make such a coherent statement while simultaneously shoving a box copy of Windows 10 up the arse of a screaming, kicking donkey.

  9. Sebastian A

    Oh I'm sure they're gutted at having to change this. The damage is already done. Everyone who was going to get upgraded despite x-ing out already has been. What an utter pack of slimy filthy buttnuggets.

    High fives all-round at Redmond I'm sure.

  10. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

    Windows 7/8 log in form after July 29

    Credit card number: ____________________* CSV ____*

    [Upgrade] to Windows 10 for £99. [Shutdown]

    (* required field)

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