back to article Microsoft ordered to fix 'excessively intrusive, insecure' Windows 10

A French regulator has issued Microsoft a formal warning over Windows 10, saying the operating system collects excessive amounts of personal data, ships that information illegally out of the EU, and has lousy security. The warning comes from the Commission Nationale de l'Informatique et des Libertés (CNIL), an independent data …

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  1. matchbx
    Facepalm

    I've said it before

    Microsoft, along with all of the other big software companies, figured out that they can make more money selling your personal data to advertisers than they can selling you a product.

    It's an dangerous road to head down...

    1. BobChip
      Coat

      Re: I've said it before

      They're not (can't be) selling my (current) data. I have not used anything made by MS in the last 6 years. There are perfectly good non-slurping alternatives out there. To quote from the July 12 issue of Info World :-

      "Today, the best Linux desktop is the latest version of Linux Mint: Linux Mint 18 Sarah with the Cinnamon 3.0 interface. Indeed, from where I sit, it’s not only the best Linux desktop, it’s the best desktop operating system – period."

      OK, that's only an opinion, but it is an informed one. And I still use 17.3 LTS, because it is LTS. It is by far the most stable, and the easiest OS to install and manage that I have ever experienced. 17.3, with FOSS software, gives me everything I need to operate successfuly.

      I'm off out of here quick, because I can already hear the Redmond trained wolves howling in the distance.......

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I've said it before

        Well done. Good boy/Girl. Have a cookie.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I've said it before

        I installed the latest version of Linux Mint Cinnamon on my laptop as I look to move away from Windows, but it seems I can't get the bloody thing to do what I want.

        It will open any application that came pre-installed with the OS, but won't run any packages installed from the package manager. Despite their being desktop icons showing it's installed. Despite being an IT professional, Linux is again giving me problems when trying to switch to it.

        It's almost like Linux doesn't want me to use it. Every time over the years I have tried it, it just doesn't do what it's supposed to. :P

        1. Gert Leboski
          WTF?

          Re: I've said it before

          Really? In all the years I've used Linux based distros and more recently Linux Mint, I've never experienced what you describe.

          IT professional? Do you regard being an end user as being an IT professional? Because you sound to me like you are expecting somebody else to come along and fix it for you. Not a hint of any research or diagnostics you may have done, as to why the issues you describe exist on your system.

          Are you trolling?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I've said it before

            If he's talking Linux Mint 17.3 / 18 he's trolling, or the most incompetent IT Professional ever to set foot on El Reg.

            Linux Mint has got to be the quickest, easiest of any OS to install/use, at the present time. Windows 10 is just a pain in the arse, having to manually deactivate all the switches/telemetry, which still leaves 'basic telemetry'.

            The full telemetry reports are still generated locally and stored on the local hard disk in Win10, all this does is change a switch to whether it is actually transmitted. So, in effect this generated data can still be lifted other ways.

            1. Triggerfish

              Re: I've said it before

              I'm not really an IT professional but I ain't bad, I also have been frustrated sometimes to the switch across, I know to some degree it comes down to spend time learning a whole new OS and working out just quite what bit of my hardware is sometimes causing it to be screwy and occasionally unstable*. Just not sure at the moment when I am supposed to be finding the time to work all this out.

              So saying there's no chance I'll be moving to windows 10 unless I can't run some stuff on Linux and 7 support ends.

              *I know you may say Windows etc is, but my W7 install has been very well behaved. Better behaved than Mint.

            2. JohnLBergqvist

              Re: I've said it before

              IMO Linux Mint is for people who are too dumb to install codecs by themselves.

              I have to say, Linux has come on in leaps & bounds in the past 10 years - trying to get Suse 9.3 to install on my circa 2003 Acer Laptop was a PITA - zero drivers for my soundcard, modem, ethernet port, printer etc. Thankfully driver support seems to have improved a lot.

              Personally I use Arch.

              Is Mint still based on Ubuntu? I try to avoid anything by canonical now tbh as they kinda have a "lets ship our proprietory software on top of open-source stuff and slurp all their data" approach too. Although tbh everyone does this now, Canonical, Apple, Facebook, Google, Amazon, Ebay/PayPal, Banks, CCTV, Netflix etc. etc. so frankly Microsoft seem late to the party.

          2. Gert Leboski

            Re: I've said it before

            Ooooo, downvoted. Have I hit a nerve?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: I've said it before

              lol, downvote wasn't from me.

              If you read my post instead of glancing and trying to launch a fan bois attack, you would see I have no problem installing Mint, nor any problems using any of the applications that come with Mint.

              The problems are only with packages I have downloaded and installed, you know, things like Steam among others.

              I really don't think this is the forum where I supply full diagnostic steps, nor convey the advise of the 2 experienced linux application devs who tried to assist me. The best they can come up with is something went wrong in the install, as, I quote "They have never seen anything like this happen before".

              Their advise was to reinstall and try again, and sometime next week I plan to do so. However, all this constant linux works flawlessly is fan bois dreaming, Linux is software, software NEVER works flawlessly.

              1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

                @soulrideruk

                You see, that is what I find supremely annoying with just about any fanbois community. You make a valid point, you're experiencing difficulty, and the only thing they come back with is insults, demeaning words and contempt. Then they complain about how small their market is.

                That kind of attitude is a plague for computing in general. It keeps new people from getting interested and locks everything down to only the saintly original group that understands everything and never has any problem whatsoever.

                A 6th-level black belt in any martial art is never going to have that kind of attitude. He will seek to give you examples and help you until you figure out what you're doing wrong. We need people with that mentality in IT.

                1. detritus

                  Re: @soulrideruk

                  Oh Good, yes - instead of staying resolutely on Windows 7 'til it runs out as my protest against MS's shenanigans, but so that I can keep on working in the meantime anyway - why don't I dutifully follow the standard Win Thread complaint response and install some unknown's preferred flavour of Linux?

                  Oh. External machine drivers.

                  Oh. Software.

                  Oh, yeah - I forgot I live in the real world, shit as it may be.

                  Linux wasn't even particularly suitable for my non-techie partner for a couple of years - sure, she could browse the internet, 'do' multimedia and make notes and use basic office software.. but ultimately none of it is *actually, practically* wholly interoperable with MS/Apple stuff, is it? And that kind of matters when you're dealing with the rest of the world to put bread on your table.

                  Or you try explaining to an Italian why she should just give up after hours of swearing at logical inconsistencies and [insert workaround fudge here] because "really, my love - this isn't worth the fight".

                2. Dave 15

                  Re: @soulrideruk

                  See my post as well, EXACTLY the same when I asked for help.

              2. Lars Silver badge
                Linux

                Re: I've said it before

                "The problems are only with packages I have downloaded and installed, you know, things like Steam among others.".

                Those packages are then apparently not suitable for your distro. Use the repositories for your distro and of course RTFM, says somebody who will mostly do everything else first.

                And then you also have to just understand that as soon as there is a MS-Linux comparison some trolling tend to happen too.

                Don't take that personally and feel offended.

                I am an old Linux user since 98 and these modern distros are indeed very usable out of the net or the box.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: I've said it before

                  Really, I don't understand why people would ever ask for help on the internet, every response always comes back assuming you are a retard who's never seen a computer.

                  I have RTFM, and of course I was using correct software for the distro, and I was downloading all through package managers. As the very experienced linux devs that tried to help me said, I have not done anything wrong, the system is just not working right for some unknown reason.

                  They also went through all the idiot stuff, both of them, on separate occasions. They verified, I'm not an idiot.

                  1. Aqua Marina

                    Re: I've said it before

                    "I don't understand why people would ever ask for help on the internet, "

                    Indeed, I once made the mistake of asking for some help on a Linux related issue I was having trouble resolving. I was universally blasted on the forum as being a noob, and basically told in no uncertain terms to RTFM!

                    I responded that I had indeed read the manual, and pointed out using screenshots where necessary that the instructions provided didn't match the interface, the responses or the prompts, and that in some some cases, steps were clearly missing, because titles were present, but followed by blank spaces.

                    I was then informed by the same users who had roasted me earlier and told me to RTFM, that the manual was considered "beta".

                    That experience tainted my belief that Linux users are somehow more technically competant than Windows users. I now believe that they are a bunch of bullies, who just like to point at the new guy in the room, and pick on him.

                    1. Triggerfish

                      Re: I've said it before

                      To use the black belt metaphor above. I find the problem tends to be less they won't teach you, and more they often insist on using the original language of that art and rarely have time for you if you ask what that means in English. Dunno if it's less now, but put me off quite a bit.

                    2. Kiwi
                      Linux

                      Re: I've said it before

                      that they are a bunch of bullies,

                      In an article on MS and slurping.. MS who have shoved Win10 down peoples throats who didn't want it.. MS who recently were successfully sued by someone who lost business because of MS killing her machine with their forcing system changes on it.. MS who delete competing products without warning and remove useful/liked parts of a system without warning...

                      Few years back an elderly friend of mine had issues with Vista. I spent some time trying to research this - a fault with explorer where one of the tool bars (the one with "Organise" on it IIRC) had gone missing.

                      I only came across one other person with the complaint in the time I spent trying to find a solution, a young lass I think from Australia. In MS's own forums one of their techs was calling this lass a liar because as far as he was concerned the fault was impossible. It could not occur.

                      (That said, i did get a couple of free calls from MS support people trying to help determine what the fault was, without any luck, and eventually we decided a re-install was the only way to fix it.. The old bugger's been an almost happy Mint user since that day - almost happy because being a crotchety old bastard while I could give him better versions of Freecell and Hearts and other games like that, because the packs looked different he moaned every time he played the games for months - course he was silent when we reminded him that he'd not had a crash or virus or major slowdown in that time but hey, what's the use of being a C.O.B if you can't piss and moan at the tiniest little thing while ignoring massive benefits? :) )

                  2. jelabarre59

                    Re: I've said it before

                    I have RTFM, and of course I was using correct software for the distro, and I was downloading all through package managers. As the very experienced linux devs that tried to help me said, I have not done anything wrong, the system is just not working right for some unknown reason.

                    While Linux (mint 17.3 currently) has worked fine for me for many years, I also find those occasional quirks that never get solved. I remember the various times I tried Suse Linux and regardless of the version or machine, it simply could never get the display settings right. My current issue is with Cyberfox: as much as I'd rather be using it as my default browser (Firefox has decided they will kill plugins they don't like, with no recourse to tell them they're a bunch of boneheads in their decision), nothing will make CF work as the default. Thunderbird will sit there trying to send URLs to *itself* to open, other pages will come up and say "what do you want to open this HTML file in", etc. Figured I was just going to have to put up with the fuckwits at Mozilla for now, since Google Chrome will bring Linux to a complete halt if you even dare start it.

              3. fung0

                Re: I've said it before

                soulrideruk: " I have no problem installing Mint, nor any problems using any of the applications that come with Mint. The problems are only with packages I have downloaded and installed, you know, things like Steam among others.

                Mint 17.1 (I think it was) installed nicely on my ChromeBook (after I applied the requisite BIOS hack to boot directly into the OS of my choice). But I had to update various system components - including the kernel - in order to get all the devices to work. This process was well-documented on the Net, and went quite smoothly. Now the touchpad works, the touch-screen works, everything works. It's a great little laptop.

                I recently tried to do the same on a second, identical, ChromeBook. Mint 17.3 installed perfectly, but couldn't see the Wi-Fi properly. Nothing I could do would fix the problem. After wasting many hours, I finally gave up. But when Mint 18 came out a couple of weeks later, I tried that. It installed quickly and flawlessly, with no extra configuration required. Everything just worked first time. On top of that, Mint 18 boots faster than any other Windows or Android device I own, even on the under-powered Celeron system. I've installed various applications from the Software Manager, including Steam. Given the limits of the hardware, undemanding games feel right at home.

                My point being, Linux is a work in progress - and the progress is very real. Unlike the 'progress' we're seeing in Windows, where it's one step forward, two steps back. (Or sideways.) Windows has never been able to install perfectly on every piece of hardware, every time. I've even seen Windows laptops come right from the store in a non-functional state. Overall, I'd say Mint is already easier to deal with than Windows 7, and vastly more tractable than Windows 10 - the first OS that's literally been engineered to get in the user's way.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I've said it before

            Some times software gets weird. Long time Ubuntu user. I built my self a new PC two years ago. This time I was going for a triple boot. FreeBSD/Ubuntu/windows. FreeBSD worked fine, windows worked fine. Ubuntu threw a fit over my network card. Ever few minutes it would drop ETH0. No reason. IT's the first and only time I have had a major problem with a linux distro. Well other than some cheap no name gear that had issues in windows as well as linux.

            1. swampdog

              Re: I've said it before

              I had a wierd one with clonezilla. My laptop hd was failing so I replaced it with an ssd to give it a new lease of life. The ssd is half the size. It's amazing how much crud you can get rid of when you decide to.

              Restored to the ssd and lost eth0. Repeat. Ditto. Eventually decided to sit down and look at the problem which turned out to the the selinux security context on a single file.

              # chcon --reference=./ifcfg-lo ifcfg-eth0

              This is irritating for the fact I can't restore it to a VM. The laptop has a bonkers partitioning scheme which the vmware bios won't grok: blank - nada bios "he no work!" so I'll never know if it was a one-off glitch in clonezilla or (more likely) a final spanner from the dying hd.

              Sometimes wierd shit(*) just happens.

          4. Dave 15

            Re: I've said it before

            The replies to this guy seem typical of my very unfortunate experience.

            A few years back now I took a machine of mine, cleaned the drive and followed the instructions for a linux distribution.

            It booted

            It then told me that the monitor was not a graphics one and proceeded to leave me with the command prompt.

            This being a graphics monitor on a graphics card that had been displaying graphics for about 5 years.

            When I asked 'the community' to point me (as a new to linux but experienced guy) in the right direction the abuse wasn't believable even though I read it. Not a single answer that helped . My ability, my skill, my knowledge were all called into question, I think even the marital status of my parents.

            There are definitely people that think this is acceptable in 'the community', and the comments about a guy who has clearly had an unfortunate problem, possibly from his installation, who may or may not be a professional of hours or years standing show that 'the community' hasn't grown up and still can't understand that help is sometimes needed not abuse.

        2. TimeMaster T
          Thumb Up

          Re: I've said it before

          Thus speaks the MSCE "IT Professional"

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: I've said it before

            Absolutely right!!

            I got mine about 15 years ago, as it was vitally important back then as I wanted to move from being a lowly field server engineer to one of those lucky IT people who got to sit in offices all day.

        3. Code For Broke

          Re: I've said it before

          Linux Mint Cinnamon has totally turned around my sexlife. On the very first day that I downloaded the ISO, before I had even written it over to a flash drive, the hunney from down the way came over on the premise of needing to borrow ingredients for a cake. Asked if I had some cinnamon, I invited her in to come and have some.

      3. Cynic_999

        Re: I've said it before

        I use Mint on my PC, but unfortunately have never got it to see my Laptop WiFi, despite trying various complex command line driver installs. A laptop without WiFi is severely limited ...

        1. TVU Silver badge

          Re: I've said it before

          If anyone is having any problems with Linux Mint then I would suggest trying out LXLE Linux or Linux Lite and see how things go. In the case of Linux Lite, I would suggest installing the easy to use Lubuntu Software Center app store (instructions are on the recent review of Linux Lite on Spatry's Youtube channel).

        2. Kiwi

          Re: I've said it before

          Though rare, I believe I have actually seen the non-working wifi beasty in Linux.

          In most laptops, wireless cards are cheap (like less than a cup of coffee if you go 2nd hand) and take less time than needed to drink the coffee to swap out. And if you get pretty much any broadcom or.. can't remember the other names atm but any generic or name brand or cheap chinese/korean/wherever card will be picked up by a Linux OS in a matter of microseconds without the need to install additional drivers. At a pinch you could go out and find a cheap USB dongle (if your laptop has enough ports, few do!) and plug that in, and have most modern Linux distros find it and have it working (save for your credentials) before your brain even registers that you've fully plugged it in.

          I'm a fussy fat lazy slob, and that's why I love Linux. I don't have to get off my arse and do anything for or to it, it (usually) just works. Yes, I did manage to screw up my video drivers today pissing around with something I didn't quite understand, but in those cases Linux gives you various recovery options that far surpass the no-longer-available "safe boot"...

          Grab a couple of pounds, go down t' high street, grab yourself a nice new dongle, and start enjoying life :)

    2. TheVogon

      Re: I've said it before

      "Finally the agency excoriates Windows 10 for its poor security. People can use a four-digit pin to log in and purchase apps"

      But you can CHOOSE to do exactly the same on Android or IOS. This isn't a Windows security failing, it's a user choice.

      "and the CNIL notes that there's no limit to the number of times a PIN can be tried"

      Also the same as Android / IOS.

      There are also security advantages to using a PIN - if you’re using a Microsoft account to log in to your device, you’re entering a password that can be used to gain access to every single aspect of your account, including other devices and web services.However, by setting up a PIN lock, you can unlock a single device without routinely using your account password.

  2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    Cut to the chase - how many % of global turnover can they fine them?

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Translation, let us in on the data slurp or we need some euros as compensation.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ah, you're clearly aware of the French government's enthusiasm for surveillance and access to all communications. I haven't looked at this for a while, but didn't they once have a ban on encrypted communications?

      1. Hans 1

        >I haven't looked at this for a while, but didn't they once have a ban on encrypted communications?

        I think that was 20 or even 30 years ago, unsure ... then again, when is CNIL gonna slap MS for the Windows 10 upgrade fiasco ?

        1. captain veg Silver badge

          The wasn't a ban on encrypted communication. There was a ban on encrypted communication using keys that were specially weakened for the NSA. This was at the time that the American government seriously thought that no other nation was capable of developing strong encryption.

          -A.

  4. Mark 85

    Faint hope... very faint....

    While I applaud the CNIL for their effort, There's little hope anything of substance will be changed. It might change for the French and the EU, but won't here in the States. That is unless MS does a massive re-think on this which is probably unlikely. Most likely, they'll just promise to keep the data in their data center in the EU.

    1. a_yank_lurker

      Re: Faint hope... very faint....

      Faint hope, yes. But if one regulator starts making serious noises will others be far behind. Slurp's antics have left them vulnerable to some regulators legitimately poking around not liking the stench raised.

    2. scarletherring

      Re: Faint hope... very faint....

      "... promise to keep the data in their data center in the EU"

      Yes, especially if the recent decision declaring US govt having no authority to demand data off Irish servers holds up.

      I find this phrasing on the part of MS's deputy counsel interesting:

      "In the meantime it had adhered to the old Safe Harbor rules despite the agreement being struck down."

      He says this like Safe Harbour was struck down for being too strict!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Faint hope... very faint....

        "Yes, especially if the recent decision declaring US govt having no authority to demand data off Irish servers holds up."

        Is it just me or does that judgement coming so close to the Privacy Shield announcement ring all sorts of warning bells, klaxons and other sundry alarums?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Faint hope... very faint....

        "In the meantime it had adhered to the old Safe Harbor rules despite the agreement being found invalid." doesn't have the same ring to it, does it.

        MS have gone full on slurp mode with 10, they probably knew some states would bitch but needed to get the basic database populated so any later tracking by other means can be tied up to a person.

        I bit like non facebook users still having a facebook identity, just not a public one.

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Teiwaz

      Re: Rather Late....

      "This is all rather a bit too late.

      Microsoft back ported the key logging to Windows 7 and 8/8.1 in July 2015 - as well as being implemented in Windows 10.

      They have had all your passwords, files/directory structure for nearly a year - so complaining now is too late to stop the rot."

      - Hmm, kind of reminds me of the Vogons response to protests when coming to demolish the earth in HHGTTG.

      I guess it takes time for any agency to get itself together to challenge a multinational, typical it's the French first, the British would just tell you to bend over more and it won't hurt as much.

      The Ubuntu tablet OS isn't there yet, and the Bq is a little lacking whomph, but it'll get there in a bit.

      1. Michael Habel

        Re: Rather Late....

        The Ubuntu tablet OS isn't there yet, and the Bq is a little lacking whomph, but it'll get there in a bit.

        Yeah, but Canonical, need to stop using crappy chip vendos *cough* MediaTek *cough*, and get onboard with Qualcomm, or Samsung. Barring that Intel, assuming they could be assed to reintroduce the Atom again. But, that would undoubtedly affect the price. But a a full fat native Linux Phablet would be a long time coming.

        1. Neil Alexander

          Re: Rather Late....

          "But a a full fat native Linux Phablet would be a long time coming."

          The Linux community still can't get desktop computing right for "average users". They're quite some way off managing a decent tablet experience.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Rather Late....

            @ Neil Alexander

            Are you suggesting MS has got the UI right? Some would suggest they were with XP or Win 7, but they've moved on from there.

          2. oldcoder

            Re: Rather Late....

            It has been doing quite well doing desktop computing -- for about 15-20 years I've been using it. Bot at work and at home.

            You just have to get used doing without a nanny computer service - that costs you an arm and a leg.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Rather Late....

              You could also Raspberry Pi...it'd be a bit lumpy for a tablet; but there's people making 7" and 10" capacitive touchscreens for them.

        2. Teiwaz

          Re: Rather Late....

          "Yeah, but Canonical, need to stop using crappy chip vendos *cough* MediaTek *cough*,"

          - They aren't Apple. The choice of chip is wholly up to Bq, Meizu etc. I doubt they're given an option on the choice of hardware, and all Ubuntu phones released have been Android (or Flyme OS) designs repurposed.

    2. Duncan Macdonald

      Re: Rather Late.... - Blackberry Playbook ?

      Will not run most modern apps - but does not have intrusive advertising and was built with security in mind.

      Still readily available secondhand.

      1. Kevin Johnston

        Re: Rather Late.... - Blackberry Playbook ?

        Quite, in fact you can get a refurbished Playbook so cheap that I now have a 7" Satnav in my car which has all the maps I need and route planning which all works offline....and all for £30

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