So in a future distopean world
if kiddie fondling was legalised, Sir Jimmy would be pardoned? It's a dangerous road to go down.
‘Alan Turing law’ to give posthumous pardons to 59,000 men for 'gross indecency'
The government is set to extend the posthumous pardon given to Alan Turing for gross indecency to all of those men who were convicted for homosexual acts under legislation which has since been repealed. Back in 2009, Gordon Brown, as Prime Minister, apologised for the appalling persecution of Alan Turing, which involved a …
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Thursday 20th October 2016 09:58 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: So in a future distopean world
> Sir Jimmy would be pardoned?
Was he was convicted of something?
A pardon implies an offence was committed and forgiven rather than an irrational law. Apology should suffice. Will they start pardoning hanged slaves for running away, burnt heretics for being Protestants?
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Thursday 20th October 2016 12:10 GMT Teiwaz
Re: So in a future distopean world
Apology should suffice. Will they start pardoning hanged slaves for running away, burnt heretics for being Protestants?
Protestants, Catholics, Waldensians, Witches, all were roasted at one time or another, depending on Monarch.
Now people are just lightly braised before a beak in court and scorched if the red-tops get incensed with unrighteous indignation and any scars for life are more often mental rather than physical - I believe Turing was chemically sterilised*. The punishments and nature of offenses people find offensive has changed, but the nature of people hasn't one iota (see also *).
* I'm sure there a plenty would suggest it for todays scapegoat deviants.
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Sunday 23rd October 2016 17:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: So in a future distopean world
>The runaway slaves and burnt Protestants (*cough, and burnt Catholics)
Burnt Catholics? Most were drawn and hung - a few more killed by mobs etc through more elaborate means - crushing, beheading etc. Struggling to thing of one who was burnt at the stake by official sanction though. Mary torched close to 300 Protestants in contrast - burning at the stake was a more Catholic taste :/
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Thursday 20th October 2016 10:01 GMT S4qFBxkFFg
Re: So in a future distopean world
So in a future distopean world
if kiddie fondling was legalised, Sir Jimmy would be pardoned? It's a dangerous road to go down.
...
On the things-to-worry-about scale, these two aren't exactly comparable.
It's a bit like criticising Mohamed Atta for failing to file a flight plan.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 10:34 GMT Just Enough
Re: So in a future distopean world
"if kiddie fondling was legalised, Sir Jimmy would be pardoned? It's a dangerous road to go down."
If murder was legalised, Shipman would be pardoned? If zombies existed, would brains be served at McDonalds? If Santa existed, would breaking and entry through the chimney be legal? If death by stupid internet suppositions was possible, would this question be criminal?
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Thursday 20th October 2016 11:45 GMT Tigra 07
Re: So in a future distopean world
No. Because:
Children still can't give consent and paedophilia will never be acceptable enough to legalise.
This is a problem today because people getting a criminal record check for a job could be refused for having a criminal record, or have their employer know they're gay while interviewing, which could harm their chances of recruitment as it's still seen negatively by a portion of the population.
Also the dangerous/slippery road argument is pretty much always a ridiculous hypothetical
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Thursday 20th October 2016 15:15 GMT Wilseus
Re: So in a future distopean world
"Children still can't give consent and paedophilia will never be acceptable enough to legalise."
How do you define what is a child though? What would be considered paedophilia in this country is perfectly legal in many jurisdictions, including many EU countries.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 16:36 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: So in a future distopean world
>How do you define what is a child though? What would be considered paedophilia in this country is perfectly legal in many jurisdictions, including many EU countries.
In the EU child sexual abuse (where there's coercion, abuse of trust, prostitution etc) is anyone under 18 years of age - even in EU countries where the age of consent is 14 or 16. (see Lanzarote Convention)
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Thursday 20th October 2016 23:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: So in a future distopean world
> What would be considered paedophilia in this country is perfectly legal in many jurisdictions
Well, it's getting to the point where pretty much all sex is illegal in the UK.
Luckily I now live in a place where I can tell people they have nice hair or congratulate them on their smart looks¹ without risking having Mr Plod called on me.
¹ Not that there is much opportunity for that in "let's all dress to look like a bag of potatoes" Blighty.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 12:46 GMT Semaj
Re: So in a future distopean world
What is a child?
I had parents - I am their child so I am a child.
I believe that someone is classsed as a child in comparison to someone else if they are aged less than half of the elder's age +7.
I now believe that a child is someone under the age of 16 becase I'm in the UK.
I now believe that a child is someone under the age of 18 because I moved to the USA.
Now I think that a child is someone under the age of 14 because I moved somewhere else.
But now I think someone is a child when they are less than 18 because they are nude and in a photograph.
Changing of definitions happens all ready and it is terrifying. The other edge of pardons like this is retroactive laws. Now THAT is the dangerous road.
And let's remember that it's not just kiddy fiddlers that are targeted by anti sex laws. Yet anyone who falls foul will be labelled as such.
The whole thing is a mess.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 14:33 GMT Hollerithevo
Re: So in a future distopean world
Semaj, a child can be thought of as someone who cannot give consent, because they don't have the same mentality as the other person and do not have the same power. They don't understand what they are consenting to, they don't have the power to refuse consent (especially if they are too you to be able to talk). The age at which any society thinks the two participants are of equal standing to make their understanding and consent meaningful differs, but I think the intent is always the same.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 12:42 GMT Teiwaz
Re: MinTrue
Will people now also be convicted posthumously for what was once not illegal but is now illegal?
Precedent - Oliver Cromwell after his death was tried, convicted, and executed (again) for the execution of the rightful monarch.
...cue the Monty 'Oliver Cromwell Song'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBPf6P332uM
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Thursday 20th October 2016 09:58 GMT Anonymous Coward
Rewriting history
Retrospective laws are generally considered a bad thing (although the UK can't get enough of them).
Retrospective pardons are also a bad thing - they will now be used to make the 1950s and 1960s "alright" for future generations.
Just wait until slavery is revised, along with womens rights.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 10:11 GMT Anonymous Coward
How about the one where you were required to grow hemp if you were a landowner? Any news on revisions to that one?
Not sure about this posthumous pardon...In one sense it's good that his name is cleared; on the other hand it does fuck-all good now. Massive apologies and compensation for the living, sure, but it smacks of legal onanism. Making sure it doesn't happen again and sorting out injustices we have right now would be a better plan IMHO
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Thursday 20th October 2016 11:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
Mandatory hemp farming
this was a (Tudor) English law, and - England being England - you could choose not to grow hemp and pay a fine (cf church attendance in Tudor times)
Many farmers preferred the fine, as hemp is a smelly business when done for fibre ("retting"). Also hemp seed makes eggs taste funny.
Even in the 1500s, England (the UK being a way off) needed to import hemp to keep the navy going.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 10:24 GMT gv
The State being made accountable
It is hugely significant that the State acknowledges that it's previous policy was wrong, unjust and caused huge problems for those affected by it. Governments being held accountable for their actions (or inactions) should be the main cornerstone of a democratic, civilised society.
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Friday 21st October 2016 15:10 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: The State being made accountable
On the other hand....
Pardon: Granted by someone with the power to do so.
Apology: Given by someone who did wrong or feels guilt for something.
Personally I feel no guilt for something done by someone else, especially by dead people even if they are direct ancestors. "Sins of the father" is a silly concept. An "apology" given by the State out of the mouths of people who were not in charge, not responsible and may not even have been born at the time is a pretty empty concept and is is only done for reasons of current political correctness and points scoring.
Still waiting for the apology from Italy for all those slaves taken from Greater Britannia...
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Thursday 20th October 2016 10:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
TBH I can't really see the point of this and the cost justification. Lots of things used to be illegal which are now legal, for example abortion, gambling, heresy etc but no posthumous pardons for that.
Attempted suicide also used to be illegal and that opens up all sorts avenues about posthumous pardons.
Just be glad we moved on to more enlightened times.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 11:31 GMT Anonymous Coward
Differently unenlightened
> Just be glad we moved on to more enlightened times.
I'm not so sure we have - there are plenty of loosely framed laws now to entrap the perhaps misguided and offensive but basically harmless who come to the attention of the Authorities (extreme pornography, material preparatory to terrorism etc), and if the law can't oblige, social media has plenty of lynch mob potential.
I think a modern day Turing could be destroyed in much the same way as A.M.T. was in the 50's.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 12:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Differently unenlightened
>there are plenty of loosely framed laws.........plenty of lynch mob potential.
As long as you have lawyers you will always get stupid laws, it's probably a conspiracy by the Inns of Court to keep the fees flowing by first making them then arguing against them.
Lynch mobs are old as mankind, we do it on line now instead of using a rope and tree.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 11:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Warning - Full Rant mode...
..god there are some fucking dickheads on this forum.
Comparing being homosexual to pedophilia, murder, running away as a slave, witchcraft and all the to other shit being spouted here, are missing the massive fucking point.
One is between two consenting adults harming no one else.
All the others, I'm pretty sure, are not.
Idiots.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 11:18 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Warning - Full Rant mode...
>>Comparing being homosexual.............
I think you are missing the point, homosexuality was once considered being comparable to some of the things you mention and was thus illegal.
You were burned at the stake for witchcraft and heresy at one time which is a more considerable punishment than a fine or prison for importuning.
These days we know better and are more enlightened, you can thank Science for that.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 12:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Warning - Full Rant mode...
These days we know better and are more enlightened, you can thank Science for that.
I think you put science on too much of a pedestal. At least, it was more the failures of 'corrective' treatments devised and applied by psychiatrists, Stonewall riots and gay rights lobbying, a combination of changing societal attitudes, that homosexual acts are no longer illegal.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 18:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Warning - Full Rant mode...
>I think you put science on too much of a pedestal
Science is a tool merely for the seeking of knowledge and truth through discovery of the world around us. It is the dark side of mankind that chooses to pervert a thing for ill or malevolent use. Science gives you a sharp stainless blade which you may either use to repair a diseased human brain or slice the healthy carotid artery of another. You could argue it was the advancement in our scientific understanding that brought about the huge socio-economic changes which gave people the freedom to think.
I'll take science & philosophy over religious orthodoxy any day.
Disclosure, I'm both an atheist and a humanist.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 13:53 GMT PatientOne
Re: Warning - Full Rant mode...
Erm...
Witches were protected under crown law and you couldn't kill them by burning - you had to drown and behead them, then you could burn the body. I believe that witch burning was more an american thing.
Witch trials during the English Civil wars were an anomyly, encouraged by Parliament against royalist supporters and so were political. Those killed as a result were pardonned by the King (Charles II) when he ascended to the throne (Post Cromwell). Not that it did them any good.
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Thursday 20th October 2016 18:17 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Warning - Full Rant mode...
@PatientOne >Erm...
Erm references ?
http://www.witchcraftandwitches.com/trials.html
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/burning.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt
The last person in the British isles to be executed for witchcraft in 1727, burned at the stake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Horne
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
