People with nothing to say-
Are prolific in todays 'echo chambers'.
People -like Dave, here- that should be listened to, talk in the wilderness.
Lessons from the Mini: Before revamping or rebooting anything, please read this
If you're considering doing a relaunch, a "reboot", or a revamp of any kind, there's a lot to learn from the story of the Mini. The original Mini had been in production for 41 years by October 2000, when the last one rolled off the line at Longbridge – but the design had never really been updated. For the last two decades of …
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Friday 21st October 2016 10:50 GMT Conrad Longmore
Impressive..
That's a pretty impressive portfolio of designs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Stephenson
On the Mini.. well, it a contentious one amongst car fans. Issigonis was trying to design something cheap, small on the outside and big on the inside all while using as much from the BMC parts pin as possible. The fact that it was cute to look at and fun to drive were rather pleasing secondary factors.
When *Rover* tried to redesign the Mini in the late 1990s, they came up with a number of things which were closer to the Issigonis idea of efficient packaging (some looked like the Daewoo Matiz), where BMW was more interested in the cuteness factor. In the end, BMW won and the Mini was a huge success.
There's an interesting and more detailed story about the development of the Mini and the prototypes that never made it here: http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars/mini-bmw/mini-2/the-cars-mini-development-history/
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Friday 21st October 2016 11:15 GMT Gotno iShit Wantno iShit
Re: Impressive..
At least BMW retained this part:
Issigonis was trying to design something cheap, small on the outside and big on the inside all
Unfortunately somewhere in the translation to German a couple of key points got reversed. How such an enormous hunk of metal can have such dismal usable space inside beats me. I had a Countryman on hire once, that's the estate version, 4 flight cases filled the boot. If you were transporting 4 people to the airport with a fight case and laptop each the laptops would have to go in the footwells. In an estate FFS.
As for the interior, it had all the style of Flavor Flav. Being a low rent version it didn't have much so there was an analogue clock a foot in diameter in the middle. Awful. It did have a USB port you could use to access music. Ever tried finding the track you want from thousands on a display that can show 2 lines, no search facility and just up/down buttons? Useless.
I left the hire ticket hanging on the mirror just so people would know it wasn't mine.
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Friday 21st October 2016 18:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Impressive..
In the same way that people have grown, so have their luggage requirements. It's astonishing the amount and size of cases fat Luton chavs try to get through the beautiful Luton airport, it really is. Still, dragging the trolleys, sweating and swearing is the only physical activity these lard-buckets ever do.
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Friday 21st October 2016 21:02 GMT R Callan
Re: Impressive???
How a car can be called a "Mini" when physically it is as large as a "Maxi" I do not know. Well not quite, but the current "Mini" is as high as a "Maxi" wider than a "Maxi" and marginally shorter. It also weighs 20% more. The Maxi has(had) far more usable interior space.
The Maxi was of course another parts bin special, poor Issigonis could never persuade the bean counters to let him design from scratch.
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Friday 28th October 2016 21:11 GMT G7mzh
Re: Impressive???
My father had the original Mini (when it was still called an Austin Seven). Eevert year, it carried me, my parents and my grandmother away on holiday to various far-flung parts of the country, together with enough luggage for a fortnight. To this day, I can't work out how we got everything in!
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Saturday 22nd October 2016 11:34 GMT Rusty 1
Re: Impressive..
What the chufftikins were you thinking, when, knowing that you had to get 4 people with luggage to an airport, that a *Mini* was the thing for you?
And you think a *Mini* estate is a proper estate (i.e. big) car?
The clue is in the name.
Were you dropped on your head as a child?
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Monday 24th October 2016 09:04 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Impressive..
The clue is in the name.
But as the poster above pointed out, after the translation from English into German, the word Mini has somehow morphed into the word Vasti. SWMBO has a MB E CLass estate, we were parted next to one of these Vasti's in the supermarket the other day and it towered above the Merc and given how much space was left in the parking space I'm guessing it was wider than the Merc.
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Monday 24th October 2016 10:54 GMT Lotaresco
Re: Impressive..
"That's a pretty impressive portfolio of designs"
I like most of his designs but find his "retro" stuff to be a bit disappointing. The Fiat 500 and the Mini are ultimately less good than the cars they ape, although he did a much better job of the Mini than the Fiat 500. One of his designs, the MP4-12C, is a car I love. I think that one was just right and it's a shame that its target market didn't appreciate what a brilliant car it is. It appears that they would rather have a Ferrari made of cheese than a beautifully engineered British car. The BMW X5 is just all-round vile and seems to attract a particular sort of driver, so I wish he hadn't designed that one.
From the article: "Stephenson ... didn't think much of what BMW subsequently did with his revamp comparing it to a small SUV."
Alex Moulton was generally positive about the New Mini, although more because it was providing UK jobs than any particular feature of the design. Dr Moulton has also expressed his sadness that manufacturing in the UK is in decline. However he did make one comment about Stephenson's "New Mini" that reflects Stephenson's dislike of later "Minis"; "If we had wanted to make it that big, it would have been easy."
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Sunday 12th March 2017 13:54 GMT Alan Brown
Re: Impressive..
"Issigonis was trying to design something cheap, small on the outside and big on the inside all while using as much from the BMC parts pin as possible. "
The whole "small on the outside" and highly stressed small engine thing were for tax reasons (larger cars were taxed out the wazoo) and whilst sir Alec succeeded, the prevailing design ethos put people in harm's way (the rear seats were the crush zone when shunted, as a f'instance).
Ralph Nader's "unsafe at any speed" may have been about american cars, but most european ones were much worse, compounded by government rules which encouraged such designs without regard to the human costs. We owe a massive debt to (E)NCAP
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Friday 21st October 2016 11:01 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Nice article...
Quite. FTA:
"BMW gave the job to BMW designer Frank Stephenson, who modernised the Mini without losing its essential character."
Then BMW management came along and decided that the essential character, what "mini" actually meant, was nothing more than the front end and dashboard design and had nothing to do with vehicle size despite the name. The initial update of the Mini was fine, but the current iterations are just bloated overpriced 3 series with a different bodyshell and Issignonis would be spinning in his grave faster than a turbo if he could see how BMW have bastardised his vision.
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Monday 24th October 2016 10:01 GMT VulcanV5
Re: Nice article...
I actually thought this article was going to warn of the disaster that awaits when a product of and for its age is exhumed in commercial hope of it becoming a product of and for a later era. Instead, this piece is, inexplicably, a paean of praise, one which makes me think El Reg should maybe stick to matters computing and leave matters motoring to others.
That the "new" Mini does indeed reflect the vapid and the bloated so characteristic of the modern era is nothing to celebrate: it's just a bloody monstrous wagon with a late middle-age waistline, in no way resonant of an ancestor affordable by the many rather than the few and enriched with a personality that no amount of Frankensteinian engineering can ever replicate.
If anything is to learned from the story of the Mini it's that unless an original is going to be re-born with its charisma, character and cleverness embodied and enhanced, then don't bother; the real "lesson" here is Fiat, with its re-born and revitalised 500, not BMW's flaccid failure.
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Friday 21st October 2016 11:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Nice article...
"It's about as "mini" as 70's Land Rover."
One wet and windy night I trudged across a large expanse of car park tarmac to my Range Rover "A". I was almost up to it when I realised my mistake - it was a same-coloured Mini shorn of any visual size context.
All my cars have been rectangular boxes. Austin A40 Farina, Austin 1300, Landrover 86", Mini-Moke, Range Rover "A". Each with a distinctive shape.
Nowadays a Range Rover is indistinguishable from many other saloon cars.
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Monday 13th March 2017 13:46 GMT Lotaresco
Re: Nice article...
"Nowadays a Range Rover is indistinguishable from many other saloon cars."
No, it's easy to tell it's a Range Rover because it will be driven by an ignorant oik, especially if it is a "Sport" or an Evoque. This didn't use to be the case, Rangies were driven by laid back people. Now it's only bought by the sort of moron who works in marketing or runs a gym or is a parasite of similar kind.
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Friday 21st October 2016 12:55 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Nice article...
" It's about as "mini" as 70's Land Rover"
I prefer to think of it as the BMW Maxi. Someone was going to blow the doors off, but it turned out to be a bit stretchier than they imagined.
Has anyone tried mixing cross ply and radial tyres on a BMW Maxi?
One day, someone will update the mini and get it right, but I'd be willing to bet it won't be in the next decade.
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Friday 21st October 2016 15:36 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: Nice article...
>BMW Maxi.
Ouch. As someone who had the misfortune to once drive an Austin Maxi (and learnt to drive in an Allegro - never was there a more mis-named car) that lowers my expectation of the BMW "Mini" considerably. And they were not high to start with.
(I used to work with someone heaving into the proper Minis. He used to spit if anyone tried to make out the the BMW Mini was a viable successor..)
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Tuesday 15th November 2016 21:02 GMT Loud Speaker
Re: Nice article...
an Allegro - never was there a more mis-named car
No. It was a spelling error. A previous owner had corrected it on mine to "All Aggro"!
It was exactly right - needed a repair every week. However, the week before it was due for an MOT (which it would have failed on almost everything) it was stolen! The thieves must have been really sore!
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Friday 21st October 2016 14:58 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Nice article...
"I own the new Hyundai i10...Small size, small boot, small engine, great handling, good turning circle and can seat 4 better than the old Mini."
Not that different to many very small cars. What puzzles me is why I get similar economy to these tiddlers and much better performance from my much larger car (a mid sized estate with a VW 1.4 engine).
Not condemning your choice because there's all the other factors at play, just asking why small car fuel economy doesn't reflect the diminutive size?
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Friday 21st October 2016 22:31 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Nice article...
"Not condemning your choice because there's all the other factors at play, just asking why small car fuel economy doesn't reflect the diminutive size?"
Not enough mass so wind becomes much more of an issue? Dunno really, I never thought about it but my gut feeling is I get better fuel economy when driving with a full load in the boot. Light footed driving and "coasting" downhill with the extra mass might be part of it even if that does sound counter-intuitive since the extra mass has to be driven up the hill in the first place.
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Friday 21st October 2016 16:41 GMT circusmole
I was at a local....
...BMW/Mini dealer recently and had a look at the so-called Minis. They are f***g massive things and f******g expensive. The original concept of an affordable, space-efficient, basic vehicle has been completely lost. The Mini showroom was more like a fashion store than a car showroom - with as much space given to Mini-branded luxury goods as to the cars.
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Friday 21st October 2016 19:10 GMT Lars
Re: I was at a local....
"The original concept of an affordable, space-efficient, basic vehicle has been completely lost." So very true, but people tend to forget that the demands, the law has changed, like crash tests, air bags and so forth. If you like the original just buy one. This happened to the original Ford Mustang too and that's why you still see some of them around. Not to mention the CV2 of course. Some still love the Trabant too. I suppose the Fiat 500 is about as close as you can go to day. And don't underestimate nostalgia, you might not like that much a Mini to day.
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Monday 24th October 2016 09:19 GMT Goldmember
Re: I was at a local....
"They are f***g massive things and f******g expensive"
Yes, but the world changed during the 40+ years of the original Mini's production, whereas the design of the car did not. I visited the BMW museum in Munich last year, where they have/had a "Mini Story" exhibition (which was actually pretty cool). One fact that stuck out to me was that the average human was 10cm taller in the late '90s than they were in the late '50s. So the revamped car had to be designed with this in mind.
But the cost thing... yes, of course. BMW is a premium brand. They aren't going to churn out cheap and cheerful, iconic branding or not.
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Saturday 22nd October 2016 01:36 GMT oiseau
Re: Nice article...
.
"... but the modern mini is just a joke. It's about as "mini" as 70's Land Rover."
I quite agree: a joke and a bad one at that.
Like it has been said above:
"The concept of an affordable, space-efficient, basic vehicle has been completely lost."
To me, the "new" mini has nothing of the Mini Cooper I used to "borrow" from my father during our stay in the W.I.
Cheers.
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Saturday 22nd October 2016 13:37 GMT phuzz
Re: Nice article...
"It's about as "mini" as 70's Land Rover."
You take that back!
Series 1 LandRover: Length 3.35m, Width 1.55m, Height 1.87m
BMW MINI : Length 3.63m, Width 1.69m, Height 1.42m
(OK, the Series 1 was earlier than the BMW, and to be fair, a MINI is almost exactly the same size as a 70's LandRover, within a few cm!)
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Friday 21st October 2016 10:52 GMT Anonymous Coward
Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
Perhaps commercially, but from a cultural and historical point of view it was a failure.
Turning a cultural style icon, a unique product that is liked by millions into just another (not so small) car with a mini sticker on it. In 100 years no-one will remember to revamped mini with fondness.
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Friday 21st October 2016 10:57 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
In the 1970s the mini was very much seen as a small family car for running the kids around town (small turning circle, park anywhere tolerable for journeys of less than an hour). They are now almost entirely driven by single women, maybe with their BFF. Meanwhile the family car market has merged with the small van one. So maybe a shift in the demographic was required? But I too pine for something smaller.
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Friday 21st October 2016 11:53 GMT Nick Ryan
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
I was under the impression that the family car market has merged with medium sized vans, not small ones. :) But then I still consider this to be a small van!
As for a "success", possibly but only if you take out the measure that most were so bloody unreliable that they spent an unreasonable amount of time being "fixed". Only to then fail again for something similar or possibly unrelated within another month or two.
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Friday 21st October 2016 12:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
In the 1970s families - i.e. the people in them - were smaller. I never felt my dad's minis (saloon and Countryman) to be small or lacking in space. Then people got fat. Amusingly, my current car, a leased VW Tiguan, has front seats so wide - to accommodate contemporary fat bastards, I assume - that they're uncomfortable for my relatively slim self and diminutive wife.
As for merging with vans: that makes a lot of sense. Take a look at how a Skoda Yeti is laid out. Perfect for the swag we all carry about these days. And, with added ground clearance to deal with the state of the North London Alps, a.k.a. 'roads'.
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Friday 21st October 2016 22:45 GMT John Brown (no body)
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
"As for merging with vans: that makes a lot of sense."
There's a commercial reason for that too. Not just the shared parts inventory, but the law on maximum speed for commercial vans is different if the van is based on a car.
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
"Vans, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles
Most vans under 7.5 tonnes laden (loaded) weight, including Ford Transit vans:
- have a lower speed limit than cars
- must follow the speed limits for goods vehicles of the same weight
A vehicle qualifying as a ‘car-derived van’ or ‘dual-purpose vehicle’ has the same speed limits as a car."
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Friday 21st October 2016 19:11 GMT allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
"Indeed, anybody who thinks that "the redesigned VM Beetle had shown that the market liked a small city car with some character." clearly has no clue what size a 'small city car' is."
They also have no idea what a car with some character is.
Essentially, the 'New Beetle' is just an expensive VW Golf1) 2). (The Audi TT is essentially a very expensive VW Golf.)
1) Leftpondians might know it as a 'Rabbit' or 'Caribe'.
2) However, the VW Golf always did very well in the "World's Most Boring Car" awards, and continues to do so.
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Friday 21st October 2016 19:25 GMT allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
"It's just a shame that they have been made with the traditional FIAT attention to quality.."
My first car was a second (third?) hand Alfasud*... what you get from FIAT** these days is GOLD in comparison.
* Still, it was fun to drive. The 1000 cc 4-cylinder boxer packed quite a punch for it's size.
** Okay, there is the old joke that it's an acronym for 'Fehler In Allen Teilen'.
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Friday 21st October 2016 15:44 GMT Tim99
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
I bought a new Mk1 VW Golf in 1978, possibly the nicest car I have owned. It was smallish, handled well, seated 4 comfortable;,and for its time fast and economical.
I'm retired now and don't travel far. My current car is a Polo, and is almost the same size as the Golf was. It's performance is similar, although it is heavier, its handling is a bit better and the fuel economy is better. One of the main differences is that, in real terms, it is a lot cheaper...
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Friday 21st October 2016 12:21 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
To be fair, a lot of the size inflation of these cars is down to safety devices. Crumple zones take up space. And the fact that we're all taller and wider than previous generations. So there was no way something the size of the old Mini of Fiat 500 was ever going to pass muster on safety - and then half the customers wouldn't fit...
However the VW and the Mini seem to have got the proportions completely wrong. They look huge and unweildy and have lost the original shape. Whereas, at least to me, the new Fiat 500 looks like it's in the right proportions - but just bigger than the original. The less said about the abominations like the Countryman the better. At least VW never made a Beetle estate! And what they've done to the ones they've slapped a Cooper badge on is even worse. Basically you get a badge, possibly a noisy exhaust, some stripey things on the bonnet and the hardest springs they could find, so your arse feels every crisp packet you run over, let alone the potholes.
Too often revamps or "reboots" are commissioned to chase a new demographic
This is the oddest bit though. BMW specifically did seek a new demographic! The original Mini was cheap! That was one of the points of it. The new Minis (like the new VWs) were both ugly and hideously expensive. Whereas the new Fiat 500s seem to be a similar price to other similar types of car, just with a nice nod to the heritage.
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Friday 21st October 2016 13:31 GMT Dave 126
Re: Are you saying the mini revamp was a success?
I don't like the MINI Coopers - mainly because they are usually driven very slowly given their sporty badge. I can only assume it has been bought by the spouse of the slow driver for when they need to borrow it.
However, the early BMW MINI wasn't bad, and one fella I know drives a red one every day. His other car? A 1963 Mini Cooper that he has lovingly stripped down to every component, painted, and rebuilt. Again, red, with British Racing Green inside the engine bay. Indeed, he's had it for decades, but told me that it was only with the rise of the internet that he was able to source some certain refurbished parts.
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Biting the hand that feeds IT
