Windows 8: At least it's better than ‘not very good’ By the pricking of my thumbs, and by the noisy crowd booking out half the pub, the wickedness of office party season has kicked in big time. Certainly, 'tis the season to be jolly and to suffer the indignities of itinerant workers debasing themselves in order to get invited. Another year at the Cheshire Cheese The importance …
Haven't we beaten this subject into the ground yet? Or is it just that somebody wants to keep it rolling until enough people scream "Enough already, I'll buy it if it will keep you quiet!"
Whatever the Microsoft apologists might say, the battle lines were drawn on this subject a long time ago and there's little sense in dragging it out now. We know that there are people out there, possibly a large number of them, that don't like the unholy wedding of TIFKAM and the more traditional interface minus its "start" button because it doesn't work the way they want it to in the desktop environment. Likewise there are folk out there that like W8, especially in the touch environment which is pretty much where it was targetted anyway, so it's likely that most desktop/laptop users will go to W7 instead (or Linux).
We also know that the tablet and the smartphone are being taken on by more and more folk in the home, in quite a few instances as a replacement of a PC rather than as an addition as they don't use a PC for anything over and above what they can do with a tablet, and W8 is a latecomer here in comparison with Apple and Android.
And before we bring up the thorny subject of Windows 3, consider how long ago that was, what we had to run it on and all the effort that has gone into improving the front end, including Windows in its various guises since W3, Apple's various revisions since System 7 and all the various GUIs on Linux. (Yes, and RISC OS too!) W3 was pretty much a menu system, the equivalent of the Start menu on its successors, and nothing more, so it's a bit pointless to compare it to any of these.
W8 has its benefits when it comes to a touch screen environment, but it will struggle to beat the systems that are already dominant in that area. It may be years before Microsoft makes a dent in the fondleslab market and will only do it with an intuitive front end, something that W8 fails at in some areas. As far as the PC market goes, however, W7 and WXP are tough acts to follow and W8 just doesn't cut it.
There. I said it again!
@chika - you make a very good point. At the time your choice of desktop GUI was Windows 3, Mac or, if you afford the hardware, X-Windows. We ran X-Windows on the workstations but they were way too expensive to dish out to grunts, Mac was an utter bitch to code for compared to Windows (yes! really!), so Windows 3 it was and we felt damned lucky to have it. When you got 3.11 there was much less messing around with Trumpet and the like and we thought that we were in clover. It was Windows 3 that really put a PC on every desktop.
MS did a really good piece of work with the Win95 interface - it basically saw them through until now - but with Win8 they seem intent on anatagonising with that PC on their desktop. Yes, things have moved on, but when there are still so many desktops sporting PCs this does seem rather inept.
Finally took the plunge last week. Don't regret it. Using keyboard shotcuts as a crutch until I get used to the gestures. And I'm shopping for a touch screen, though multi-touch is too pricey at the moment. I'm looking at some HP-branded monitors rated for Windows 7 Touch that might be cheaper.
The list of working apps I have includes Roxio Creator 2011 despite their best effort to botch it up, the Mass Effect series, Goldwave despite that author's efforts to botch it up, Office 2007, Virtual Clone Drive, MAME 64, a couple flavours of Descent Rebirth, both Halos, Steam, even a $5.00 copy of Duke Nukem Forever. All working. Even got Mail working with an Exchange 2003 server and ActiveSync.
...having 3 windows open at the same time? Yes, my desktop does ALWAYS have at least 3 open, usually more. And more on the 2nd screen.
I'm also a little puzzled about this 'hit the Win key, type a few letters' thing: I can type the entire 'MediaPortalFS1' shortcut name (to open it Fullscreen on screen1) and search never finds the shortcut... also can't understand why pinning them to the taskbar but getting completely identical icons makes any sense.
...or why ejecting a removable drive should close the explorer window, among many other annoying little errors in the UI.
anyone who doesn't want to use Windows anymore or doesn't like it, please remove it and install Linux, or give it to someone else and buy a Mac.
I fail to see the point in buying something you dont like and then spending months moaning about it
or worse not buying or using something you don't like and spend months moaning about it.
seems like an awful waste of time and energy
"Or are you another one of those people who hasn't really tried it?"
Of course I haven't. I absolutely did not just fire the VM up to prove you wrong with a screenshot, only to be told that WIndows 8 has fucked up all by itself. I am lying through my teeth when I say that it's still thrashing the shit out of the hard drive doing whatever the hell it's doing and showing me that blue windowtiles logo.
So I got the edition name wrong. It's Windows 8 64 Professional, for fuxache. Hardly a major crime when you consider how many stupid editions Windows comes in these days.. perhaps I should refer to them as crippled, half-crippled, little-bit-crippled and not-crippled-if-you-have-a-volume-license editions?
Oh by the way: FINALLY!
But hey, maybe I faked those screenshots and drew them in MS Paint, eh? Perhaps I'm a Google shill? Here, throw a few "freetard" comments around as well, if you like. It's all the same bullshit. Just like TIFKAM.
of course running Win 8 in a VM immediately makes any and all issues a Windows problem and nothing what so ever to do with your VM server...
and then once you do get it loaded you go to great lengths at removing just about all the good bits you can find from it making your experience limited to say the least...
and there isn't really hundreds of "stupid editions"
lets put aside the idiocy of "N" given that was not a choice of Microsofts they were forced in to doing it in the EU
we have Win 8 and Win 8 pro on X86, we have the same again on x64 and RT on ARM
you have enterprise on VL and.....that's it
essentially that means for 99% for home & SMBs you have 3 versions
Win 8
Win 8 pro
Win RT
add enterprise if that's your business and that makes a grand total of 4
that's not terribly complicated even for the great uneducated.
yes I removed x86 x64 differences because at this stage its more academic then anything, OEM versions are again academic, they ALL fall in to one of the 4 versions above
its curious that you actually acknowledge there are for versions too, I presume that pro is your little bit crippled and yet enterprise is classed as not crippled? using your logic I don't completely understand as there are only half a dozen extra features on Ent, many of which are directly tied to Domain level usages. they sure as hell do not make up the overwhelming part of the OS for the user
"of course running Win 8 in a VM immediately makes any and all issues a Windows problem and nothing what so ever to do with your VM server..."
Well it's the only operating system out of all the ones I've tried in the VM that funks itself up after doing nothing whatsoever to it.
"and then once you do get it loaded you go to great lengths at removing just about all the good bits you can find from it making your experience limited to say the least..."
Err, where? You mean I unpinned all of the animated, garish, useless unused shite that it seems to spew all over TIFKAM by default? I suppose I could pin every single app to the start screen again, but then we have the problem I've already mentioned, of TIFKAM being a ginormous flat list of tiles that turns what should be an heirarchical tree, into an exercise in information overload. Same thing applies to pinning a ton of stuff to the taskbar.
Let's get this straight, in case you haven't seen any of my other posts on the subject: Faster is good. Leaner is good (though it really isn't THAT lean). TIFKAM is utter bollocks.
Give me my desktop back, with the start menu and the automatic commonly-used-programs bit, and it'll be like WIndows 7 but better. As it is, it's a piss-poor attempt to turn a desktop computer into a phone. They've created a supermodel, then promptly taken it out back and purposefully smashed its face in with a brick.
I see what your saying, but a properly constructed "start" menu aka metro aka modern UI is much more efficient.
Do I use it for metro apps? no, not really, there are a couple that are ok but by an large everything I do is back in desktop. However what it does do very well is give me an update of anything I want updates on very quickly, a single push of a button or click of the screen gives me updates on dozens of things and shows me the most frequently used programs I want quick access too, on my task bar I have a couple of other ones I have pinned, these tend to be the ones used when already on the desktop, the metro ones tend to be the initial turn on and launch programs
regarding VM yes a VM may support other OSs but that doesn't mean your VM is bug free with the most modern windows available, there can be all sorts of complications and conflicts that may only affect certain hardware configurations, all im saying there is don't assume its Windows, I have it running on hyper v without issue, from within win 8 so it does work at least in this instance.
As bad as some people find Windows 8, they sure as hell will hate a modern Linux distro even more.
Even the designer of the kernel hates the Linux desktops:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/05/linus_torvalds_reviews_kde/
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4-to-be-a-total-user-experience-design-failure/11127
Linus Torvalds may have designed the Linux kernel but hes just one of us when it comes to liking or disliking a UI. The review you post of his opinion on KDE is far from the truth as it pronounces only his criticisms of KDE and none of his positive feedback.The thing with KDE, is that it doesn't treat its users like infants who can't be trusted with control of their own computers. Linus has switched back to it, so the KDE developers must be doing something right...
the thing is, most users are idiots who cant be trusted with anything complicated. The mere fact you are here suggests you fall outside of that bracket but the overwhelming large proportion of computer users do fall in to that.
Simple sells and whilst it is painful for more experienced users to get used to, we have to get used to it.
I was messing about with old SX2 50 based system I had in a loft the other day, the lack of math coprocessor is a bit of pain for anything even remotely modern but I fired up Windows 3.11 and spent a good deal of time remembering what things used to be like, and yes it was great having all the power in the world, gritty settings and command line options, but actually, now, I couldn't give a funk about them, I just want it to work there an then, no hassle, no fuss
In my humble opinion that is where Linux needs to be to gain any traction in the desktop market, yes android is based on it but look at how simple that has been made, on the face of it its dumb as funk, where android has at least partially got it right is that some of the higher level functions (or lower depending on your perspective) are still there just kept out of the way
I use Windows in large part because that's where the applications are.
Macs attract certain types of applications. Linux attracts certain types. Windows attracts a rather larger set, given the network effect of having more users. Stuff I use often is only on Windows. Plus I rather like XP. And I suspect that by using Classic Shell to hide the idiotic, hopeless fondleslab advert of a start screen, I can make Windows 8 look enough like XP. I may actually try to do that soon. Classic Shell looks great on my son's new laptop.
Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie had it right in their old song:
From Macintosh to Microsoft to Lin-lie-lin-lie-nucks
Every computer crashes
'cause every OS sucks.
Tell us Dave are they allowed to whinge if someone else - a purchasing department say - buys it for them? I suspect that may be most people.
At home I have moved to Linux (LXDE for the most part but I get to pick at logon). At work I've just finished giving my lot Win7. I won't move them to Win8 unless I have to - if for no other reason than I don't want to put up with a fortnight of moaning while they relearn everything for no readily apparent reason.
@Pat 4
Suggest looking at Centos 6.3/Scientific Linux 6.3/Springdale Linux (aka PUIAS)!
These are free/libre clones of RHEL 6, the Red Hat release that was based on a mix of Fedora 12 and 13 packages. Both Gnome 2.x
Similar kernel and applications, but with basic security updates until 2020, and application version updates until 2017. Firefox ESR.
There are live CD images to try on your hardware.
PS: I quite like Gnome Shell and I have Fedora 18 and the Gnome Ubuntu Remix floating about
@Pat4
In that case, KDE? XFCE? Plenty of other alternatives too.
To be honest, I share your pain as I just killed my attempt on openSUSE 12.2 to regress to 11.4 because of the screwup I perceived in the GUIs there. I really can't fault Torvalds on that one.
My next attempt might be to try 12.2 with TDE (a branch of the older KDE3 GUI) as the native KDE3 is severely cacked IMHO. In a virtual system, of course!
> I fail to see the point in buying something you dont like
The point being that they don't know they don't like it until after they buy it - how hard is that to understand ?
In many cases it is the _only_ option in the shops, because MS want to force it down everyone's throat, how hard is that to understand ?
I recently set up a shiny new Win8 laptop for two OAPs who were used to XP on an old desktop machine.
For them TIFKAM gives them easy access to everyting they need. It sure as hell got in the way of what I needed to do though. How are you supposed to get into the Control Panel or 'My Computer'? The biggest embarrassment came when we inserted a CD that had some simple card games on it. A message appeared for about three seconds that said "click here for more options" but it disappeared before OAP#1 got the mouse pointer onto it. I then struggled for ages to find out how to 'explore' the disk before giving up, ejecting it and then re-inserting it. That did not inspire them with confidence that I knew what I was doing.
My assessment.....some tricky things have been made simpler, but a shedload of simple things have been made trickier. I was very impressed when I enabled the wireless option on their printer, entered their password and and by the time I turned back to the laptop it had found it and installed the drivers without me having to do anything.
Would I buy it? Not as an upgrade. I love Windows 7 too much now. Would I buy a laptop with it pre-installed? Possibly, but only if it was cheap and had a touch screen.
Jesus, seriously? How old are you? Six?
"How are you supposed to get into the Control Panel"
WIN+R - type "control panel". Press Enter.
'My Computer'
WIN+R and type 'explorer', then press Enter. Or you can just enable the usual Desktop icons through the Personalize command (in the context menu).
Exactly the same as in every previous bloody version.
HANDY TIP FOR THE IGNORANT:
Do you still rely heavily on the mouse / trackpad for accessing everything? If so, I have some bad news for your "IT Credibility": By definition, you are not an advanced user! WIMP-based GUIs were designed for beginner and early intermediate users, who are supposed to learn the keyboard shortcuts. Keyboard shortcuts are the "advanced UI" for all GUIs based on the 1960s-era WIMP metaphor.
That's the whole POINT of WIMP-based GUIs. It's right there in "GUI Design 101" textbooks, so you really have no excuses for all this incessant whining and moaning about how MS have mucked about with the Start Menu yet again. (The same Start Menu that they've been mucking about with in almost EVERY Windows release since Windows 95.)
NONE of the keyboard shortcuts have changed. ALT+TAB still works as before. The Windows key will usually switch between the launcher and the last-used app. WIN+D will bring up the Desktop.
The Windows key on its own still brings up the Start Menu (or its tiled "ModernUI" incarnation on Windows 8). Again, this behaviour has not changed. Why on earth anyone who considers themselves any kind of expert or advanced user still drags their mouse pointer all the way down to the bottom-right corner in this day and age escapes me: that key's been on every PC keyboard for over 15 years now. After all these years, do you still need a coloured picture to aim at?
Even ALT+F4 will close apps and bring up the usual "shutdown / sleep" dialog in the same contexts as it did before. WIN+R will still pop up a dialog to type app names into. (Many advanced Mac users use Spotlight in a similar way. Others run a launcher called "Alfred", or use some other method.)
Christ, if you think Windows 8 is "hard", you clearly never tried to play around with Intuition on an old Commodore Amiga 1000. (And people said the PC's old CGA graphics palette was hard on the eyes.)
Pipe, slippers, rocking chair, pretending to be deaf, "kids these days", etc.
GUI Design 101, make it possible to perform common actions BOTH by keyboard and Mouse. Power users may like the accelerator keys and typing stuff, but switching between keyboard/mouse input is at best a distraction.
It's almost as bad as being told "hey idiot, all you have to do is start a DOS command prompt and type this gibberish in". If you need to start typing to hit something as basic as control panel (and, for reasons that pass all understanding, Microsoft seems to have two different versions under 8) then they've got it badly wrong.
"Do you still rely heavily on the mouse / trackpad for accessing everything? If so, I have some bad news for your "IT Credibility": By definition, you are not an advanced user! WIMP-based GUIs were designed for beginner and early intermediate users, who are supposed to learn the keyboard shortcuts."
Scrathpad. Xerox Parc. Older people. Chunky buttons.
PS: I invoke these concepts as one who spent most of the summar using vim in a full screen terminal session running Bayou typing book chapters in LaTeX.
If you really believe that WIMP is just a crutch whilst you learn the keyboard interface, like you are "supposed to" then "by definition" you are a rubbish UI designer.
Sorry Sean, but after 30 years of using WIMP interfaces, no-one (not even MS with their stonking market share) can turn round to the general user population and say "You should have finished learning the keyboard shortcuts by now.".
On the wider issue of why the El Reg readership is so split on this, perhaps the explanation is that half of us use computers to get our own job done (and are perfectly willing to learn new tricks if there's a benefit) and the other half use computers to help everyone else get their jobs done (and therefore we are hugely sensitive to how they will get on when the interface is placed in front of them).
Give it 12 months and (with the typical PC upgrade cycle) there will be a sizable fraction of "my" end-users wondering how to get their job done with this wierd new interface where everything familiar has been hidden. It won't be MS who have to answer these questions. And all so that Steve can have another crack at the phone market. Gee, thanks!
"Why on earth anyone who considers themselves any kind of expert or advanced user still drags their mouse pointer all the way down to the bottom-right corner in this day and age escapes me"
Not all shortcuts are easy with one hand, and I like to hold my cock in the other.
Mines the one with the pack of tissues in the pocket.
You know, I thought this thing called a GUI (Graphical User Interface) was supposed to make the basic operation of a computer easier. Instead of remembering lots of esoteric commands that had to be typed in, you could point at things to select them, and click them to activate. That is the point, is it not ?
Yes, I have used Windows 8 for some time, although I readily admit I fully discarded any worth Metro may have.
There are a few useful desktop improvements, for sure, but the startup speed improvements are exaggerated - if you have an SSD (as you should), it makes little to SFA difference.
Essentially, if you're willing to work around some of the issues in 8, perhaps by installing a Start Menu alternative, then it's decent enough.
But there's literally nothing that would make you want to go through the hassle and expense of installing 8 when you have 7. Even if that expense is only fifteen dollars, or whatever the cheapest price was touted as.
>But there's literally nothing that would make you want to go through the hassle and expense of installing 8 when you have 7.
I'll take your word for it, as I'm happy enough with Win 7. That said, I haven't any USB 3 hardware, or any need yet to explore Storage Spaces. Lots is written about the Win8 UI, (I'd just assumed that technical users will use 3rd party tools modify it to their liking... surely 'power users' have their own pet tweaks they like to make to any GUI?) but less about the 'under the hood/bonnet' new features/bugs.
I kind of get the impression that MS knew many people would be happy enough with 7 not to bother with 8, so they have been more experimental with 8's UI, with a view to implementing the resulting feedback into 9. This view is deliberately optimistic, though!
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