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back to article PC makers REALLY need Windows 8.1 to walk on water - but guess what?

An updated Windows 8 from Microsoft will NOT be the "miracle cure" for traditional PC makers in need of a sales and profits injection. And that's according to IT biz analysts Context. This is the second technology distribution channel watcher in a week to warn that Redmond's touch-friendly operating system tweak, namely …

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      1. JEDIDIAH
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        Re: My thoughts...

        > Not only does W8 work beautiful without touch

        The missus ended up with a Win8 machine. After having used it for herself she views Win8 as an intolerable drain on her productivity. That includes usability failures as well as being bloated and sucking the life out of otherwise respectable hardware.

        Microsoft seems to do poorly whenever there is any sort of measurable end user resistance to a new version of WinDOS.

        They have that in spades with Win8. The odd fanboy/shill doesn't change that.

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      2. Tom 13
        Reply Icon
        Devil

        Re: Not only does W8 work beautiful without touch

        Yep, it works so much less mouse you get to drop endings from words!

        vEry guDly 4 U!

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        1. mmeier
          Reply Icon

          Re: Not only does W8 work beautiful without touch

          And Tom13 in his never ending wisdom just realized that

          a) English is NOT my prime language

          b) I am a lousy typist and know why I use spellcheckers on all relevant stuff

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      3. Belardi
        Reply Icon

        Re: My thoughts...

        Then why does Microsoft promote it as a TOUCH-User Interface then?

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  2. hungee
    Happy

    My solution

    How to re-energise PC industry.

    Atom Bay trail quad core 2ghz.

    Intel HD 5k graphics (discrete in 15" model)

    128GB SSD. Preferably pcie ( like that Samsung one)

    4GB ram

    11" 720p / 13" 900p or 14/15" - 1080p screen.

    12cm Max thickness.

    Win7 or 8.1 with Linux option (for 80 bucks cheaper)

    All for $300-600

    Extra $150 for touch screen

    Oh and at least decent build quality... So no Acer. :-)

    I realise that I basically described a slow Macbook air, half price cause bay trail at.

    I would buy one,

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    1. hungee
      Reply Icon
      Happy

      Re: My solution

      Oops. Forgot to use my words at the end there.

      Point is people want cheaper longer (battery) lasting computers. Like tablets.. But clamshell.

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      1. jason 7
        Reply Icon

        Re: My solution

        I think you got your thickness wrong too.

        But your point is correct, the hardware for the lower end of the laptop market has to be kicked up the arse sooner rather than later.

        If you look at the machines in the £350-£450 range from the usual suspects its no wonder no one is buying. I'm sure they can still make a compelling product in that price range especially if they expect to sell a shed load.

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        1. hungee
          Reply Icon

          Re: My solution

          Quite possibly. Ultrabook thin is what I meant.

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      2. Belardi
        Reply Icon
        Paris Hilton

        Re: My solution

        They did... those were called Netbooks. You can still buy them... somewhat. Like the HP Mini 1104 for $589USD. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834256244

        Oh yeah! The iPad totally murdered the netbook market two years ago.... even when the netbooks were $250~300USD.

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    2. John H Woods Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Unhappy

      Re: My solution

      "1080p screen"

      I beg to differ: there is absolutely no way that 1920x1080 is acceptable for an 14-15" screen. We don't want to watch movies, we want to do work - without getting migraines. In my opinion, we need to be north of 200 dpi, in order to do this properly.

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      1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: My solution @John H Woods

        If such a high pixel density is required, why have I never had migranes up until now?

        I completely dispute that it is necessary to have such high resolutions.

        In my view, as long as there are enough pixels, it's screen size that is important. And don't go on about 'colour saturation', 'jagged fonts', 'graphics intensive work', and 'multiple windows'. They're just excuses to justify the cost of such displays.

        The only reason for higher definitions is to get more on the screen, and once the character height drops to below 2mm, it becomes unusable without a magnifying glass, regardless of how many pixels are ued to display it.

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      2. JEDIDIAH
        Reply Icon
        Devil

        Re: My solution

        15 inches isn't a work screen. It's a throwback to the 80s.

        It's interesting how people managed to do work for so long perfectly effectively without overpriced luxury technology being considered the bare minimum requirement.

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        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          @JEDEDIAH

          > 15 inches isn't a work screen. It's a throwback to the 80s.

          What I've found is that a 15" TFT panel is just fine for work, if the resolution is high enough (e.g. 1920x1200) - and e.g. in the case of a laptop the panel is closer to you than a monitor, so takes up more of your field of view.

          The only problem is that I now need to wear specs to take advantage of that resolution.

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    3. Sporkinum
      Reply Icon
      WTF?

      Re: My solution

      Windows 8 "modern" doesn't support 720p.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: My solution

        720p is may be a new resolution, but it's a low def telly resolution and certainly not suitable for PCs.

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  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nothing I have seen in 8.1 screenshots..

    makes me think they have addressed very many of the problems whatsoever. It seems they are hoping that talk of a start menu sorta thing will be enough to make people believe in miracles.

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  4. The Original Steve

    Major economic downturn, computer sales slide 12% shocker.

    Well bugger me. Major economic downturn, computer sales slide 12% shocker.

    I'm not upgrading hardware at the moment because - like most people currently - I'm fairly skint compared to 6 years ago, and as other people have mentioned above hardware refreshes just don't need doing anywhere near as often, and when you do upgrade hardware / replace it the noticeable return on the spend is far less than in the late 90's as there is a negligible improvement on speed unless you're a hardcore gamer.

    I won't be replacing my PC at home that I brought 3 years ago. I shoved in another 4Gb a few months back taking it to 8Gb and replaced the SSD at the same time as the previous one died.

    Next year I may look at replacing the processor and possibly upgrading the graphics card. Although more likely to buy a new console at the end of the year instead and then replace the PC mobo, CPU and GPU in a couple of years instead.

    Buying a new box every 3 years just isn't a priority for people's wallets at the moment. Throw in the extra £100 or so for a device to be touchscreen and making do with what I have seems like a sensible option really. Doubt I'm alone in this camp.

    My decision making hasn't even reached the OS part, but even if it did then there's a range of Droid based products as well as iOS that I could use. Fingerpointing at Win8 is a tad unfair for the slump in sales, unless it's clear that it's occurred as soon as Win8 was launched. (I believe it was happening a few years ago.)

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    1. Yet Another Commentard
      Reply Icon

      Re: Major economic downturn, computer sales slide 12% shocker.

      "Next year I may look at replacing the processor and possibly upgrading the graphics card."

      I thought like that, until I noticed that the upgraded processor would need some new slot, which required a new motherboard, which often couldn't use the RAM from the old one...

      So I stopped upgrading the processor. Playing games with some resource monitoring was instructive, even big, fast 3D things use at most 30% of my CPU - the graphics cards do the heavy lifting. Assuming there's not some new-fangled AGP/PCI thing I've missed that the new cards use, my advice would be to just upgrade that bit.

      Of course, as you suggest, a console may well be the answer anyway. Depends what games/other functionality you want.

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      1. JEDIDIAH
        Reply Icon
        Devil

        Re: Major economic downturn, computer sales slide 12% shocker.

        > I thought like that, until I noticed that the upgraded processor would need some new slot, which required a new motherboard, which often couldn't use the RAM from the old one...

        Sounds like you made a poor choice to begin with. Tech moves fast but not that fast really. If you can't squeeze a few upgrades out of your hardware then you are making poor and easily avoidable choices.

        Unless you paid an arm and a leg for the fastest CPU available at the time, there's probably an upgrade path for the CPU.

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        1. Charles 9
          Reply Icon

          Re: Major economic downturn, computer sales slide 12% shocker.

          "Unless you paid an arm and a leg for the fastest CPU available at the time, there's probably an upgrade path for the CPU."

          Timing plays a role, too. Consider that many of us built our machines towards the end of the LGA755 CPU cycle. Core 2's were no slouches, neither was DDR2 memory. But then Intel comes out with the Core i's. To compete with AMD, these had internalized memory controllers...but for DDR*3*. So Intel basically imposed a dead end for anyone who needed a good machine around the cusp. Now, my machine still handles itself decently, but because it's an LGA755 system and the RAM's maxed out, unless I just get another video card (where the returns are starting to diminish because newer cards expect newer versions of PCI Express—mine's still on V1, V3 is 4x as fast), if the CPU or RAM need to be upgraded, the motherboard must be changed out which means BOTH have to be changed out.

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  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    XP to Win 8 upgrade don't make sense for a lot of people

    As XP is no longer supported after April 2014. I guess there will be a lot more compromised XP PC by December 2014. I am advising my clients with decent hardware to upgrade to a non-Microsoft based OS. I always check what their requirements are. If they just need email, browsing and LibreOffice support and have hardware with at least 512MB of RAM, I offer them SolusOS or if they have a faster PC Ubuntu. I charge £20 for setup and data transfer and I then get a much reduced support calls than I would do for XP. I only recommend Win 8 with Classic menu, i3 or i5, 6GB ram, SSD if possible for new purchases and then have to remove all the garbage that comes pre-installed for them.

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    1. mmeier
      Reply Icon

      Re: XP to Win 8 upgrade don't make sense for a lot of people

      Units still running XP are likely 6+ years old and due for a replacement. And currently many OEM offer a downgrade option for those who demand their OS still looks "like Grandpa Xerox did it".

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    2. Charles 9
      Reply Icon

      Re: XP to Win 8 upgrade don't make sense for a lot of people

      What happens when you run into a system where the OS is EOL but it's platform-locked due to professional or custom software that can't make the jump?

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  6. CADmonkey
    Alert

    it took me 10 minutes to get to grips with win 8

    dammit, it took my WIFE 10 minutes

    Admittedly we broke our duck on a touchscreen, but we've since bought a laptop as well. I fail to understand a lot of the hate, TBH. Getting to the desktop is easy, rummaging around in the guts of things is easy.

    I also run winphone 7.8 on an old hacked HD2. Again, it runs sweet as a nut and living with it is pretty painless.

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    1. jason 7
      Reply Icon

      Re: it took me 10 minutes to get to grips with win 8

      Yeah that's the reality I've found with introducing my customer to their new Windows 8 machines. It's really not a problem moving folks from XP to it. A few minutes of hand-holding (I still did that with folks moving to 7, Libraries anyone?) and they are good to go.

      No one has asked to go back.

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: it took me 10 minutes to get to grips with win 8

        > No one has asked to go back.

        They just haven't asked you.

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        1. Jamie Jones Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: it took me 10 minutes to get to grips with win 8

          "> No one has asked to go back.

          They just haven't asked you."

          Or they only use one piece of software at a time. Using windows8 is easy if you aren't a power user.

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      2. Belardi
        Reply Icon
        Paris Hilton

        Re: it took me 10 minutes to get to grips with win 8

        Learning HOW to use Windows8 and like actually working with Windows 8 are two different things.

        Many of us own Android, iOS and WindowsOS products at the same time and use them everyday. Hell, in the space of 1 min, I've touched all 3 such devices in my home.

        Windows 8 is a crappy UI, for an OS platform that is sinking.

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      3. Roland6 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: it took me 10 minutes to get to grips with win 8

        >No one has asked to go back.

        Did you tell them this was an option? and the price for exercising that option?

        I suspect that many users dislike the Win8 UI but grin-and-bear it as they accept that is what is shipping now.

        It's a bit like new cars, there was a time, not too long ago, when given a key the average person could get into a car, start the engine, fill the tank with fuel, operate the radio and various controls WITHOUT having to first read the manual or ask a guy from the showroom for a 10 minute getting started session.

        Now with keyless car's it is a challenge learning the masonic handshakes necessary to get into a car and start the engine, and as for doing something as simple as turning the radio on and selecting a station ...

        Win8 definitely comes from the same school of thought.

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  7. Anonymous Custard

    The best OS...

    ...should be the one that you don't notice, which just acts as a nice gateway portal into the functionality (program or application) that you actually want to use.

    All most people want from an OS is something that gets the machine up and running quickly, allows easy access to the programs/apps that do the various specialised jobs and is a stable and secure enough platform to be a good foundation level and not bring the whole lot crashing down or allowing viruses/malware to sneak in. Aside from that it should be out of the way and not interfering with daily life.

    But it seems to me that this nice simple remit has been replaced by marketting and the "all-singing-all-dancing look at me" approach which is diametrically opposite to where it should be. It's all fancy bling, at the expense of true functionality. Sadly whilst Win8 is one of the main offenders for this, it does seem to be something of a wider trend beginning with things like Unity as well.

    Android and iOS, by design and by (older) hardware constraints don't seem to suffer anywhere near as much of this, and so people go for them. The hardware form-factor for media consumption also helps of course, but there's certainly a lesson in there for desktop OS makers should they wish to hear it on their current stroll towards the cliffs...

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  8. The BigYin

    Makers may need that...

    ...users need/want a platform where they can install what they want, when they want and how they want. And also optionally lock-it down if they want.

    MS can take their SecureBoot anti-competitive plot and ram it up their arse side-ways.

    It may provide security to the user, but at the moment it is purely a means to block competition. And as for UEFI - it's clear that this is a total clusterfuck due to OEMs (e.g. Samsung, Lenovo) not following proper testing strategies.

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    1. The BigYin
      Reply Icon

      Re: Makers may need that...

      And I'll add:

      It may provide security to the user, but at the moment it is purely a means to block competition. And as for UEFI - it's clear that this is a total clusterfuck due to OEMs (e.g. Samsung, Lenovo) not following proper testing strategies.

      I'm running a 5 year old PC. The only thing I can't do is play modern games (e.g. Crysis 2). I don't care about modern games though (loads of much more innovative indie stuff around). As my PC does everything I need (plays HD video & music, allows me to documents, email yaddah-yaddah) I am not going to blow circa £750 on a new box just because MS have spunked some crap out.

      MS is not Apple, it does not have fanbois with masses of disposable income wanting to be a pretend trend-setter.

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Makers may need that...

      the majority of users don't know what UEFI is let alone let it influence their purchasing.

      in a time of monetary hardship the proportion of UEFI-aware buyers might increase but I'll risk saying they still aren't enough to influence the trend significantly one way or the other.

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      1. The BigYin
        Reply Icon

        Re: Makers may need that...

        They will when the bad UEFI implementation bricks their shiny new Win8 toy (e.g. Samsung). When folks buy a car, they tend to do a bit of research (diesel vs petrol, Ford vs Skoda etc etc).

        Why they don't clue themselves up a little before buying a PC always amazes me.

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    3. mmeier
      Reply Icon

      Re: Makers may need that...

      Strange but the "Win8" sticker requires that SecureBoot can be switched off by the end user. So no problem there ASSUMING the user wants to install another OS. Given the 1.x percent market share the other option has in the pre-Secure Boot times - most don't

      UEFI is not the same as Secure Boot even if they are mashed together a lot. Works without SB quite nicely. Bad implementations by the OEMs are the OEMs fault, not MS

      As for the rest - you can install what you want on Win8, even GPL stuff if you want to taint a proper CSS system with that FossTard stuff.

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      1. The BigYin
        Reply Icon

        Re: Makers may need that...

        "Strange but the "Win8" sticker requires that SecureBoot can be switched off by the end user."

        Not on all platforms. On ARM it means that SecureBoot can't be switched off.

        "So no problem there ASSUMING the user wants to install another OS."

        The device (any device) is there to serve the user, not the OEM. End of discussion really. Anything that limits the actions of a user (up to and including destroying the device) is a bad idea. Of course, the OEM can set some sensible defaults; but the final say should always (always) be with the end-user (or, at least, their corporate IT department).

        As for the 1%, you are confusing the traditional desktop with every other platform.

        I know UEFI is not the same as SecureBoot, that's why I made it a separate point.

        "if you want to taint a proper CSS system with that FossTard stuff."

        Ah, a classic example of someone who has no point to make so has resort to name calling.

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        1. mmeier
          Reply Icon

          Re: Makers may need that...

          Win8 != Win/RT. Two different breeds. Win8 ONLY runs on x86 and REQUIRES SecBoot off.

          And Win8 IS classic desktop and tablet not toybreed touchies

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      2. Francis Boyle Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        And folks it's happened

        We've finally found the one true anti-Eadon.

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        1. The BigYin
          Reply Icon

          Re: And folks it's happened

          Prolly the same person.

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          1. mmeier
            Reply Icon

            Re: And folks it's happened

            Damn you found out.

            Greetings,

            Steve B

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        2. James O'Shea
          Reply Icon

          Re: And folks it's happened

          "We've finally found the one true anti-Eadon."

          Yep.

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  9. jason 7
    Meh

    Another 'Churnalism' article?

    Thinking back how many of these exact same articles have we seen on the Reg over the past 6 months?

    Seems like we get one every two weeks with us all posting the same stuff running to 2-3 pages of comments and flames.

    I just hope we are all using AdBlock if that's the case.

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  10. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    At least it's good for something...

    All those "business analysts" are having the time of their live, selling their "wisdom" to anyone who wants to have it.

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  11. P. Lee
    Unhappy

    PC makers don't need a new OS

    They need new/better hardware features.

    An always-on disk/media server built into a desktop for example. Modular cases with external PCIe links. Aggregated GigE links for PXE booting.

    The problem is that the big companies are focused on supply-chain integration and tax efficiencies, not products.

    My guess is that IP law is preventing competition as all innovation will be subject to years of lawsuits, even if it is new and exciting. Add to that the fact that manufacturers have thin margins and are thus dependent on continuing to please the big customers and you effectively kill your next generation of startups - anything not spun off from and protected by an existing company.

    Economic downturns (mostly caused by dodgy and irresponsible finance) don't help either.

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    1. jason 7
      Reply Icon
      Unhappy

      Re: PC makers don't need a new OS

      I can imagine that a lot of great stuff has been designed to prototype level but then stuffed in the archive due to potential pathetic/trivial patent/licensing conflicts.

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  12. Ant Evans
    FAIL

    Win8 retail experience

    My observations after a year:

    Consumers don't have a problem with the Win8 interface - and that goes for noobs as well as seasoned Windows users. They don't have the baggage that techies come with, they think it looks nice, it's stable, it's fast, and it's consistent. If consumers aren't buying it, it's because their mates are buying iPads, or they don't need a new PC at all.

    For consumers, MS has nevertheless managed to shoot itself in two ways: the TIFKAM apps were not ready - stupid stuff like duplicated hotmail contacts and no menus to fix them with - and piss poor XBox cloud performance, which the user associates with Win8, not Azure.

    MS has also succeeded brilliantly in failing to market Win8 to techies. The security model is significantly better (excluding &*%£* EUFI boot) and performance is excellent. I don't know why else you would want to upgrade an OS. TIFKAM is irrelevant here because techies know how to make it go away. EUFI boot is also optional if you hack the installation.

    So poor PC market notwithstanding, MS has executed poorly, and boy do they know it.

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    1. jason 7
      Reply Icon

      Re: Win8 retail experience

      Yep, it's not hard for folks to get to grips with.

      I just feel MS has brought in a few high up execs that are making the most heinous and basic of tech crimes -

      The crime of making big assumptions.

      For a while MS was pretty good at delivering what folks wanted and adapting to their needs (say around 2007 to 2011) but recently it's switched round to "this is what we think you need, if you don't like it then f**k off!"

      Just look at the dick in charge of the Xbox One for example. Talk about customer empathy failure.

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    2. WatAWorld
      Reply Icon
      Thumb Down

      The article is about PC makers problems, not MS's internal problems

      Analysts need to get their heads around the difference between the computer and the operating system that runs on the computer.

      MS *might* be shooting themselves in the foot, but only their own foot.

      Nothing MS does with Windows 8 can be to blame for poor computer sales because OS/x and Linux are out there and viable competing alternative operating systems, but few consumers and few organizations are switching to them.

      None of the problems with Windows 8 would stop anyone buying an Apple or a Linux computer.

      And no matter how good the best imaginable fantasy Windows 8 OS might have been, no matter how much the fantasy OS could justify tossing Windows 7, a new fantasy OS could never justify tossing perfectly good 5 year old hardware capable of running that new fantasy Windows 8 OS.

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      1. Nigel 11
        Reply Icon
        WTF?

        Re: The article is about PC makers problems, not MS's internal problems

        How does anyone how many desktops and laptops thre are out there running Linux? It's not as if you have to buy Linux from anyone. I burn a distro DVD for anyone who asks. Most of the hardware that is running Linux, has got a paid-for Microsoft license key glued to it, so it's being counted as a Windows sale by someone. Some started being used with Windows, and were then re-purposed. Some dual-boot. Some run a Linux VM in Windows (good way to start a personal migration) and some run a Windows VM in Linux (which can be faster than running Windows natively on the same hardware!) Some were nuked to Linux out of the box, and the Windows sticker represents a tax levied by a monopoly which you cannot avoid short of building your own PC from components. (Technically-minded Linux users do self-build far more often than Windows users, because they avoid paying the Windows tax that way, but it's not an option with a laptop).

        I've seen more Linux laptops in our students' hands this year than I can remember in previous years. That's nothing compared to the increase in the number of Macbooks, though. Tablets of any sort less so - in a university, you tend to need a keyboard. Wouldn't be surprised if the better-off students also have a tablet back home. Just like me. And unlike me, they all seem to be toting smartphones, mostly Android or iPhones.

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  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Eadon Has A Point

    Microsoft are currently shooting themselves in the head/foot and every other part of their anatomy. Windows 8, XBone, they seem determined to commit suicide.

    The PC market may well die, but not anytime soon. The time is now ripe for a properly marketed Linux OS to take over. They exist already, all it needs is a proper business oriented approach from whichever distro maker decides to go for it. Yes they'd almost certainly have to charge money for the OS to pay for this and employ the right people, but so what?

    It would be foolish if one or more of the distro producers don't take advantage of Microsoft's refusal to see sense.

    Microsoft are handing the Linux/BSD, whatever, distro producers the golden apple. They have to bite into it.

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