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back to article Microsoft Surface sales numbers revealed as SHOCKINGLY HIDEOUS

Microsoft's shares took a beating following its gloomy fiscal 2013 earnings report earlier this month, in which it wrote down nearly a billion dollars on its unloved Surface RT fondleslabs. But the software giant isn't out of the woods yet, because new details have emerged that have the full Surface picture looking even worse …

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Windows CE is still everywhere"

        "Windows CE is still everywhere"

        Really? Evidence welcome.

        I first used WinCE in its HPC2000 and PocketPC incarnations ten or more years ago. MS left the device vendors and end customers high and dry after not very long at all. Given that, why would any sane person still be using WinCE in new designs?

        Look around you, readers. You can see Linux devices everywhere (even when you don't know they're Linux) - SoHo routers, set top boxes, "smart" TVs, NAS boxes, and much much more. Maybe you can see a VxWorks device too (in the odd SoHo router or two, where the hardware budget doesn't run to an extra dollar or two for a Linux-ready SoC). There may still be a few devices around that run some other OS, or no OS at all.

        I'd welcome genuine reports of any actively marketed WinCE devices

        In-car computers don't count. Those are leftovers from the Gates era, sweetheart deals done at CEO level, just like the BT Vision set top box deal in the UK, likely not decided on technical merits but at senior "management" level. BT no longer use MS in their set top boxes. And soon the same will apply to cars.

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        1. Don Jefe
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Re: "Windows CE is still everywhere"

          Trimble, Motorola, Symbol, Philips and Casio all actively produce and market Windows CE devices for commercial applications. All the things you listed are consumer toys. Windows CE has a large commercial base and it is going to be around for a while.

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          1. Charles Manning
            Reply Icon

            Yeah, for how long?

            "Trimble, Motorola, Symbol, Philips and Casio all actively produce and market Windows CE devices for commercial applications"

            Yes they are. Most of them are likely investigating how to switch to Android.

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            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Yeah, for how long?

              "Most of them are likely investigating how to switch to Android."

              Except the ones that care about security...

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          2. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "Windows CE is still everywhere"

            Consumer toys they may well be, but they are stuff which runs Linux and is in many (most?) peoples homes, and in offices, workshops, etc.

            Let's put that to one side for now and look at your list.

            Trimble: Pro GPS solutions. Bit niche, but point taken. They could be anywhere. They're not really everywhere. Some of them already have Android as an option too.

            Motorola and Symbol: hey, no fair, don't count them as separate when it's the same company. Symbol have been around ages and hopefully aren't going anywhere. Windows CE is probably a reasonable fit for them for legacy purposes.

            Casio are already doing Android ePOS aren't they? Lots of other ePOS is quite happily using bog standard Windows/x86 (e.g. the Windows XP variant which, courtesy of its different name and licence, is supported till 2016 rather than 2014).

            Which bit of Philips were you thinking of?

            Anyway, the claim was "WinCE is everywhere", and I asked for examples, so thanks for the examples.

            I also asked "why would any sane person still be using WinCE in new designs?" Note: new designs.

            Symbol/Motorola have a sizeable installed base and there is value in compatibility in their market., so they're an obvious candidate to use WinCE in new product. Lots of vendors and users aren't so fussy about investment protection (maybe they should be, but often they're not).

            When investment protection isn't so important, and where technology churn is as acceptable as it is in the x86 market, Windows CE isn't necessarily going to remain the obvious choice.

            Readers will perhaps draw their own conclusions as to which of "Linux everywhere" or "Windows CE everywhere" is more plausible today. Today, most homes and offices already have Linux devices, visible or invisible. Maybe even multiple Linux devices. Most homes and offices will never see a WinCE device. And readers can hazard a guess as to whether the situation will be different in three or five years time as old products fade away, and (imo) Windows CE mostly fades away with them.

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            1. Don Jefe
              Reply Icon
              Happy

              Re: "Windows CE is still everywhere"

              I agree that Linux is a better solution and for future projects would be hard not to choose, but your original post seemed to indicate CE was dead. You got me on the Motorola/Symbol thing, that wasn't fair on my part.

              Wal-Mart, the US Navy & Marines, Army Corps of Engineers, Caterpillar, John Deere, Staples, Snap-On, Boeing, Potomac-Edison, Comcast (at least the commercial service guys do, but they may just be contractors) General Motors, NASA, the US Park Service and BLM, Coca-Cola, the SNS and Materials Research facility at ORNL and my company still use CE. I know those groups do, I'm only assuming they're not the only ones. Granted it is used primarily for warehouse inventory management and for populating service forms, but it is still there. There is just too much invested in these large systems that work very well to rush out to change everything, better just to stack on new applications as needed.

              Kind of like COBOL, people may not know CE is there, but it's in a lot of things, just working away. If you were building an entirely new system you'd be crazy to go with CE, but where it is already integrated it is going to be there for a long time.

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        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "Windows CE is still everywhere"

          Hema produce an on-road/off-road GPS navigator. In on-road navigation it uses an application called iGO, for off-road, it uses OziExplorer.

          Windows CE is the underlying OS. It's well hidden when using iGO, but very plain to see when you fire up OziExplorer on the device to view a 4WD map.

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    2. Amorous Cowherder
      Reply Icon

      Re: there is hope...

      "you can't polish a turd"

      I believe that turds, both human and domestic animal, were used to make all sort of items in the dark to middle ages including jewellery, plates and drinking vessels!

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    3. Anonymous Coward
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      Anonymous Coward

      Re: there is hope...

      Don't forget ZUNE!

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    4. Juno.az
      Reply Icon

      Re: there is hope...

      Don't forget Zune!

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  2. Tom 35

    Too bad

    They could have saved all that if they had taken the "start screen" out back and shot it when everyone but the yes men told them it sucked back on the technology eval release, the beta release, the RC and the final...

    They are still trying to pretend it's great, it's all the customers fault because they don't understand.

    39 2
    1. Don Jefe
      Reply Icon

      Re: Too bad

      You can work around the stupid start screen. You can't do anything about the fact it won't run the Windows based software packages that everyone buys Windows for.

      33 1
      1. ceebee
        Reply Icon

        Re: Too bad

        You just hit the core issue Don Jefe... WindowsRT is NOT Windows.. in the same way iOS is not OSX. Microsoft never quite got that message.

        Had Microsoft developed and marketed RT as a proper platform and managed to get some apps onto the platform RT might ..perhaps even still might, work.

        Proper Exhange support, a Modern UI RT version of Office.. etc. are essential.

        Make the Startscreen the real UI for RT devices.

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        1. Paul 135
          Reply Icon

          Re: Too bad

          no, I don't believe that would make a difference. They needed to port the full classic Windows to ARM and offer an x86 translation layer.

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          1. Shane Sturrock
            Reply Icon
            FAIL

            Re: Too bad

            The classic Windows UI on a tablet has been available for over a decade and people weren't buying it. The iPad doesn't try to be a Mac and uses a completely new finger friendly UI. Windows RT still has a desktop of sorts, along with the cut and shut Modern UI but with very few apps since there was no strong Windows Phone store environment the RT could pull from. It is an OS that is undiscoverable and still has the flipping Windows desktop to access Office (or part of it at least) which is decidedly un-finger friendly so what you get is a floppy sort of of laptop where the screen won't stand up unless it is on a flat surface and where you really need a keyboard of sorts to handle the app most users buy it for which isn't a modern app anyway, and the whole thing looks clumsy compared to an iPad which knows it is a tablet and doesn't try to be anything else. None of this is surprising, nor is the fact that customers haven't miraculously appeared for the thing.

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            1. Danny 14
              Reply Icon

              Re: Too bad

              When RT was released the interface on a tablet was quite good. It might have been utterly shit on a laptop but did work on a tablet. The price of RT was cringeworthy expensive, stupidly so. For the restrictions of RT there were no reasons whatsoever to buy one

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            2. Tannin
              Reply Icon
              WTF?

              Re: Too bad

              Shane Sturrock says "The classic Windows UI on a tablet has been available for over a decade and people weren't buying it."

              Sure. And this is different to the Surface & Metro UI exactly how?

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          2. TeeCee Gold badge
            Reply Icon
            Facepalm

            Re: Too bad

            .... and offer an x86 translation layer.

            Not an option. For that to be even countenanced, the target processor needs to be significantly faster than the original the code came from, so that it can run the emulator and the code as fast or faster than the code on the original.

            x86 --> ARM is rather the reverse of that, so it would have run like a dog.......and a dog that's a quadruple amputee at that.

            5 2
            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Too bad

              "so that it can run the emulator and the code as fast or faster than the code on the original."

              As a stop-gap, though, 70% or so of native speed would do. Especially for things like word processing and spreadsheets. If people could use their existing Office app while waiting for an ARM version to arrive then it might be a goer. But I guess the idea of being able to transfer your software from one machine to another was never going to go down well in the current environment at MS.

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              1. danbi
                Reply Icon

                Re: Too bad

                "If people could use their existing Office app "

                None of the existing desktop software is fun to operate with touch. What is the point to be able to run an piece of legacy software on a tablet, when that will only inflict pain on you?

                Microsoft have attempted to run full blown classic Windows on tablets for more than a decade already. Didn't attract anyone.

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                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Reply Icon
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Too bad

                  "None of the existing desktop software is fun to operate with touch."

                  Office 2013 is designed for touch.

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                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Reply Icon
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: Too bad

                    ""None of the existing desktop software is fun to operate with touch."

                    Office 2013 is designed for touch."

                    That's not the same thing.

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            2. Charlie Clark Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: Too bad

              @TeeCee

              I'm not sure that's true. Given the money Microsoft was throwing at the project adding some kind of x86 translation hardware à la Transmeta would have been doable. There would, of course, be a big performance hit but real performance isn't that much of an issue for most notebook applications. I used to run Photoshop for PowerPC via Rosetta on my MacBook which wasn't that much more powerful than the PowerPC equivalent. It was slow to start and to do certain effects but the GUI remained responsive and I think that's key for many people.

              So, if Microsoft had released something with some form of x86 compatibility, albeit with provisos, and waved the prospect of future native apps or more powerful devices, the story might have been a bit different. I think, however, that one aspect that is not being looked at closely enough is that RT was dead on arrival. Microsoft obviously has significant problems supporting different architectures with their current codebase and an upgrade of the OS was probably not on the cards. Windows Phone owners be warned.

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          3. jphb
            Reply Icon
            Happy

            Re: Too bad

            Wouldn't it be easier to port Linux and then run the key MS applications under Wine ?

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        2. Mikel
          Reply Icon
          Facepalm

          Re: Too bad

          @ceebee "You just hit the core issue Don Jefe... WindowsRT is NOT Windows.. in the same way iOS is not OSX. Microsoft never quite got that message."

          I'm afraid you're the one that didn't get the message. Application compatibility with legacy software HAS to go if Microsoft is to move forward. That is what Windows RT, WinRT, and TIFKAM are about. There is just too much legacy cruft in there to carry forward. 15 years of breaking their own stuff to ensure that their own apps have a leg up against WordPerfect and others results in an incoherent mess that even they can't work with any more. To effect this change they have to make their apps store viable, and then shift the OS under it. It seems to not be working.

          4 10
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Too bad

            Agreed. Microsoft needs to shift to a new paradigm. Problem is, their customer base is not so keen to follow. Unlike Apple or Google, MS has always prided itself for its backward compatibility.

            The key to RT's failure is simple: Office. If they had introduced it with a fully-capable, or even a cut-down metro version of Office, and not bothered with this schizo bipolar UI, no one would have thought that it was a bad product. Overpriced, maybe, but not bad.

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          2. dajames
            Reply Icon

            Re: Too bad

            Application compatibility with legacy software HAS to go if Microsoft is to move forward.

            That depends very much on what you mean by "forward". I strongly suspect that Microsoft's idea of "forward" is somewhere that most users would rather not go.

            To effect this change they have to make their apps store viable, and then shift the OS under it.

            The Windows Store does indeed seem to be central to Microsoft's idea of "forward" -- they want to be able to make money out of selling music, books, and video (and, yes, even apps) to the punters in the way that Apple does. but Microsoft don't seem to have grasped that doing so does not necessarily entail destroying the familiar Windows OS and its applications; nor that those are the things that their users want to keep, and that keep their users loyal.

            Until they learn that they will not succeed.

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          3. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Too bad

            > I'm afraid you're the one that didn't get the message.

            Nope, compatibility is the one thing that keeps people on the Windows platform.

            Once it stops being an issue, we see that people have no loyalty whatsoever as evidenced by the enormous popularity of Android and OSX, which total blows out of the water the idea that people stick to Windows because that's "what they know".

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          4. Michael Habel
            Reply Icon

            Re: Too bad

            Just goes to show you can't cave into pressure and try to p0wn off New Coke on People who were happy with the Old Coke.

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        3. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Too bad

          "WindowsRT is NOT Windows.. in the same way iOS is not OSX.."

          That's not a good comparison. Windows RT is the same full multitasking OS with the same kernel as Windows - just recompiled for Arm. IOS is not the same OS as OS-X.....

          1 10
          1. danbi
            Reply Icon
            WTF?

            Re: Too bad

            "Windows RT is the same full multitasking OS"

            It is exactly the opposite.

            iOS and OS X use the same base OS (Darwin/XNU) with different UI and API layers. Apple further keeps both products and remove the inclination for developers/users to bridge the gap by keeping OS X on Intel only and iOS on ARM only.

            Windows RT however contain only a (small) subset of the other Windows APIs and UIs, namely only WinRT and Metro -- and most interesting, the WinRT in Windows RT and the WinRT in Windows 8 are different. The "desktop" in Windows RT contains an crippled and incomplete win32 implementation as well.

            3 1
            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Too bad

              "That and they should have based it on Windows Phone code instead of Windows nx/xp/7/8 code"

              They did - it's the same Windows kernel in both.

              ""Windows RT is the same full multitasking OS"

              It is exactly the opposite"

              Nope - it is the same OS recompiled. Not a cut down like IOS.

              "Windows RT however contain only a (small) subset of the other Windows APIs and UIs, namely only WinRT and Metro -- and most interesting, the WinRT in Windows RT and the WinRT in Windows 8 are different. The "desktop" in Windows RT contains an crippled and incomplete win32 implementation as well."

              Because 'Win32' is....for x86 CPUs.....Pretty much all the core OS functionality outside of application layer APIs is duplicated...WinRT across Windows RT and Windows 8 are nearly identical - the only differences being related to the different UI requirements of each platform...

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        4. blondie101
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Re: Too bad

          > You just hit the core issue Don Jefe... WindowsRT is NOT Windows.. in the same way iOS is not OSX.

          > Microsoft never quite got that message.

          That and they should have based it on Windows Phone code instead of Windows nx/xp/7/8 code. And built win8 as a proper desktop OS without all that touch nonsense. Just like Apple (iOS/OSX) en Google (Android/Chromebook) are doing. One size doesn't fit all devices.

          Sharing a kernel can be wise, sharing a UI code base for desktop and touch is foolish.

          jm2c's

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      2. Craigness
        Reply Icon
        Facepalm

        Re: Too bad

        The Start screen is not the problem, and nor is not being able to run Windows software. This is a TABLET so should be compared to the ipad, which doesn't have a desktop mode and can't run mac software.

        People don't expect to run legacy stuff on Windows phone so why should they expect to do so on a Windows tablet? Maybe it's because there is a sort-of-desktop mode on Surface RT for MS Office. Instead of the Start screen being the problem, the desktop mode is the problem - remove that and even the most ignorant commentard would understand what this product is.

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        1. Dan 55 Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Too bad

          I think they expect to be able to run legacy stuff because it's called Windows RT and Windows means Windows and RT doesn't mean anything to anyone. Nobody expects an iPad to do what an iMac does because Apple made that clear from the beginning. If MS started with a name other than Windows then people would have expected something different even though it's got the desktop mode bodged in for Office (who says that the desktop mode has to stay forever on Windows RT?).

          Now people associate Windows RT with Windows legacy because it's called Windows, what would be the way out of this hole? How could MS make it quickly appeal to a market? Either they go for consumers and rebrand it to Microsoft Touch or Microsoft Tablet or whatever or they go for enterprise and keep calling it Windows and, as mentioned above, add an x86 emulation layer for legacy apps and all the admin tools.

          I think rebranding Windows RT would be a sign of utter failure so they'd be wise to go where they've always made their money, which is enterprise.

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    2. Simon Barker
      Reply Icon

      Re: Too bad

      The article is about Surface, there's plenty of other Microsoft/Windows articles for you to slag it off or are you seriously suggesting the old Start menu was good on a tablet?

      2 2
  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sometimes you can't buy a win.

    It's one thing to be willing to take a loss for a win, but another to take a loss to lose.

    I assume the 2nd wave is a tidal wave, and it will just be drowned to death in loss.

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  4. Frumious Bandersnatch

    "wrote down nearly a billion dollars on its unloved Surface RT fondleslabs"

    instead of "fondleslab", wouldn't "gazebo" "folly" be a better word? (sorry for the correction; I sometimes get mixed up).

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    1. Captain DaFt
      Reply Icon

      Re: "wrote down nearly a billion dollars on its unloved Surface RT fondleslabs"

      How about just "slab"? From the figures, nobody wants to fondle one.

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      1. Eddy Ito
        Reply Icon

        Re: "wrote down nearly a billion dollars on its unloved Surface RT fondleslabs"

        I think it's a typo and should be fondless-slabs

        6 0
  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Pro sales numbers

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't they have had to sell virtually no Pros to make those revenue numbers?

    1.2m RTs (let's be generous) at a typical price of $600 = $720m

    Even if you say they gave the retailer 30% = $500m

    Where are the claims of Pro sales numbers?

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    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Pro sales numbers

      What's that work out to in real money £?

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    2. asdf
      Reply Icon

      Re: Pro sales numbers

      >1.2m RTs (let's be generous) at a typical price of $600

      And being generous right there is why your numbers don't work out. There is no way Microsoft sold over a million at unsubsidized prices.

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  6. Homer 1

    Why is this still considered newsworthy?

    Not that I don't appreciate the opportunity to gloat, once again, over Microsoft's seemingly unstoppable race to oblivion.

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    1. Mikel
      Reply Icon

      Re: Why is this still considered newsworthy?

      Some people aren't following the plot so closely.

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      1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Megaphone

        Re: Why is this still considered newsworthy?

        FREE BRADLEY MANNING!

        1 1
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "FREE BRADLEY MANNING!"

          Free Microsoft Surface on redemption.

          Might get rid of some stock that way.

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  7. Stu 18

    Where can I buy one?

    yeah seriously, you have to search pretty hard to find one on NZ store shelves. I see even the pcs advertised often don't mention Windows anymore, instead concentrating on other brands like 'Intel' - clearly they want to promote without the taint that comes from mentioning win 8.

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    1. Shane Sturrock
      Reply Icon

      Re: Where can I buy one?

      JB Hifi has them. They have a large selection of Windows tablets, along with a surface RT and Pro side by side in the one near where I live. They also appear to have customer repellant sprayed on them or something given the crowds around the Apple stand and tumbleweeds around the Microsoft stuff. A salesman told me that they were selling lots to students who wanted Office on their tablet. I think this must be some new use of the word 'lots' of which I was previously unaware because it sure looks like none to me.

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    2. tempemeaty
      Reply Icon

      Re: Where can I buy one?

      My unused Asus 1215n netbook completely failed to boot up forcing me to shop for a replacement two weeks ago. While shopping I found the same thing you did. There was no mention of Windows 8 on any of the PCs and notebooks feature lists. It was that way at every single store I shopped at. The avoidance of listing Windows 8 was extremely obvious.

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