back to article Microsoft relents: 'Go ahead, install Windows 8.1 on clean PCs'

Microsoft says that in addition to offering Windows 8.1 as a free update for Windows 8 users in October, it will also be easier for customers to buy versions of Windows 8.1 that don't require an upgrade from a previous edition of the OS. Redmond launched Windows 8 in October 2012 as essentially an upgrade-only product. "System …

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    1. illiad

      Re: Perhaps a change of diet is needed?

      yeah, and you then just walk out having not even paid for it!!! its amazing how many people in the cafe trade dont realise WHY they are half empty...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Perhaps a change of diet is needed?

      funny, I somehow read it as "300-lb roadhouse cock" (fair enough, carry on), hairy armpits (a bit flamboyant, but hey - check), but then I hit the bit on the "cigarette stub hanging from her mouth". Her mouth... HER mouth, WTF?!

      Oh well...where are the 300-lb cocks of yesteryear...

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Usually when a company brings out a new product they sell the old one off cheap. If they started selling Windows 7 licenses for $25 a throw they could solve the "how to get people off XP" problem. Windows 8.x at $120 isn't going to do it.

    1. Michael Habel

      Usually when a company brings out a new product they sell the old one off cheap. If they started selling Windows 7 licenses for $25 a throw they could solve the "how to get people off XP" problem. Windows 8.x at $120 isn't going to do it.

      Your assuming that the "Problem" is XP, when its more like how do we get those "Sheep" to upgrade their OS's Year-on-Year? Simply replacing XP for Windows 7 is to them an unacceptable answer. As Redmond don't want Win7 to become the defacto Neo-XP.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: Redmond don't want Win7 to become the defacto Neo-XP

        I think it's too late for that.

  2. mike_ul

    It amazes me how people love bashing MS all the time. Those who say they'd rather install Linux then just install it and stop complaining, Well, except when they have no useful software to run but they can always sit there looking at their nice desktop. As for IOS, don't make me laugh. I've yet to meet an I.T professional who'd rather use that than Windows. IOS is for posers who like to sit there and look 'hip'. I like to actually *do* stuff with my PC other than watch YouTube or a few video's. Amazingly, I've never had a problem getting software to do just what I want on a Windows PC. Incidentally, I spent an entire evening using my mates IOS laptop. Frankly, when I got back home and fired up my W8 it was a revelation. It was way smoother and just better in every aspect.

    FYI, I bit the bullet a while ago and installed W8 (via an upgrade to W7) and I am very happy, It's fast and smooth and works very well. I rarely use the new start menu (I use start8) although people I work with love it. MS have a complex job and as a SW developer myself I appreciate many of the technical difficulties that exist when upgrading installations. Not always easy. So cut them some slack, guys and stop constantly bitching about them. Otherwise, stick your Linux on your PC and shut up.

    1. hplasm
      Gimp

      Why cut MS some slack?

      Just give them enough rope.

      And a gag for the fanbois.

    2. poopypants

      @mike_ul

      Cut them some slack, you say? I currently have Windows 7 Pro installed. The only permitted upgrade path that preserves my installed software is to Windows 8 Pro - a cost of AU$399.99 (=US$374).

      If I choose to upgrade to the cheaper Windows 8, Microsoft will helpfully remove all of my installed software.

      Am I supposed to believe there is some technical reason for this? Yeah. Sure.

      1. mike_ul

        Re: @mike_ul

        I was fortunate to get a deal when it first came out. It cost me 25 British pounds so I guess I was lucky. Suggest you stick to W7 then which is still a good OS.

        Other than that, re-install. Not always a bad thing if you have years of garbage on your machine.

      2. mike_ul

        Re: @mike_ul

        Is this no good????

        http://www.softwaresite.com.au/ms-windows-8-pro-upgrade-/432-microsoft-windows-8-professional-upgrade-32-bit-64-bit-eng-intl-version-upgrade-product-key-download-.html

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @mike_ul

        @Poopypants

        Only (!?) £190 in the UK for Win 7 Pro to Win 8 Pro. Looks like someone's got some hate for down-under.

    3. Richard 22
      FAIL

      iOS laptop

      You used your mate's iOS laptop. You mean an iPad? Or, perhaps you mean OSX laptop, and you don't really know what you're talking about.

      1. mike_ul

        Re: iOS laptop

        Yes, OSX. Mistyped. And it's still poor.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      " Well, except when they have no useful software to run but they can always sit there looking at their nice desktop."

      If you think there is no useful software for Linux then I congratulate you on your ability to live in 2013 in such profound ignorance.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Where is the useful software on Metro?

        Indeed! Where is the useful software on Metro anyway? Oh I see there is none. Unless you want to look at a cut down version of the National Rail website on a 30" monitor, for which a similar effect can be achieved for free by going down to your local railway station, and staring at the customer information screens.

      2. mike_ul

        Lol. I do live in the real world you anonymous idiot. Too scared to put your real name, eh? People like you are pathetic. I have loads of tech friends and none of them (none of them) would even consider using LINUX in any real capacity. I do live in the real world, thank you. Linux is great for DB's etc. but I wouldn't dream of using it as my proper PC. Stick to your Linux. You're clearly happy. I'll stick to my windows as I'm happy, okay?

        1. Greg J Preece

          People like you are pathetic. I have loads of tech friends and none of them (none of them) would even consider using LINUX in any real capacity.

          Programmer over here, real name included. I use Linux every single day for the vast majority of that day. I'm typing from Kubuntu right now. Wouldn't use anything else for my work, and especially not Windows (unless you don't consider working a "real capacity"). I do have Windows on here - Windows 8 in fact - but that's for other uses.

          I like the way you put "none of them" in brackets a second time, like on a lyric sheet. Is that an instruction for your backing singers?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Lol. I do live in the real world you anonymous idiot. Too scared to put your real name, eh? People like you are pathetic. I have loads of tech friends and none of them (none of them) would even consider using LINUX in any real capacity. I do live in the real world, thank you. Linux is great for DB's etc. but I wouldn't dream of using it as my proper PC. Stick to your Linux. You're clearly happy. I'll stick to my windows as I'm happy, okay?"

          Because "Mike_UL" is enough to identify you then? Why not put your full name and address then if you want to play this "look how hard l am" rubbish? If you spend your time attacking OSX (and referring it to iOS) or Linux with no proper arguments, expect a similar level of response back. Most of us are happy with Windows too. Windows 7 that is. The reason Linux keeps being brought into the discussion is precisely because most of us like Windows 7, the users we support be they at work, or friends and family are familiar and comfortable with the 'Windows 95' layout, and neither we or they want the Metro / apps / tablet paradigm on our desktops. Mint and the KDE distributions work far more like Windows 7, than Windows 8 does, and with the exception of hardcore gaming, and users requiring the advanced features of Microsoft Office, or certain other big proprietry packages, there is little Linux can't provide as an alternative. Your friends may not consider using Linux in any capacity. The market isn't considering using Windows 8 in any real capacity either.

        3. Vic

          > none of them (none of them) would even consider using LINUX in any real capacity.

          Then you don't know anyone of any great import.

          Pretty much every major organisation I've seen for some years runs Linux boxes in some capacity. XP/7 rule the office desktop, but even that opsition is slowly being eroded.

          Vic.

    5. Michael Habel

      Linux does nearly everything today what XP does....

      Office... Well you have the choice of Open/Libre Office. If that's somhow not good enough for you you. you can still run MS O2K3 - SP3 though Wine.

      Internet - WHAT A FLIPN' JOKE! Firefox, is 100% IDENTICAL WITH THE EXACT SAME PLUGINS! NOT A SINGLE DIFFERENCE TO BE FOUND!

      Games Valve is working on that now. Its an uphill climb (For now...), But, come the post XP era, I can see Games on linux heading evermore skywards!

      Special Productivity Softwares (e.g. CADCAM) admittedly this is the only thin line right now. But if I were such a customer of such Software I'd have be asking for / demanding a Linux version by now!

      So what exactly does a MS OS do that's so much better then Linux again? It sure as sh-- ain't being able to run it in a HTPC environ that's for sure. As the whole HTPC "concept" pretty much forced me into using Linux to start with!

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        @Michael Habel

        "Special Productivity Softwares (e.g. CADCAM) admittedly this is the only thin line right now. But if I were such a customer of such Software I'd have be asking for / demanding a Linux version by now!"

        By omitting any other category of software apart from these four, you are implying that special productivity software also includes every single script, craplet and two-bit pile of crud that most normal business users end up depending on in some way or other. Good luck even *finding* the original vendors, let alone discovering that they still have the staff and documentation to write a new version for Linux, let alone being told that you won't have to foot the entire development costs (and lost opportunity costs to the company) yourself because no-one else has ever asked for this.

        In short, you can demand as much as you like, but all you are likely to get is sued for harrassment.

        And Office 2003 on WINE? http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?iVersionId=3214 indicates that you get just "silver" compatibility at best, and Outlook is rated as "garbage". Good luck persuading your average business user to try that migration.

        "So what exactly does a MS OS do that's so much better then Linux again?"

        It runs the Microsoft legacy shit that the world and his wife is still using for just about everything. (Having said that, it does sound like Win8.1 is less willing to run that shit than its predecessors. Microsoft *may* just be in the process of blowing their own toes off.)

        1. Michael Habel

          Re: @Michael Habel

          I only tossed out CADCAM as an example that Microsoft shrills like to bang on about when this particular argument arises. I guess I could've had just as simply chucked out Photoshop into that blanket statement as well. As for Office *.vba Scripts yeah... I consed your point, but One presumes that these are the same Corporations that will eventually have to spend the cash to get their staff ready for Office2k10 or Office365, as well. Cause Its not just XP that dies next April, but O2k3 SP3 as well!

          I'm not a Big Corporate, and I don't work for One either. I'm just another happy M$ Sheeple happily running XP/Vista/7. But Windows 8, no matter how much "better" under the bonnet it may be. Is just a step to far. And given that Home installs probably outweigh the Corporate Ones. Even if the vast majority of those came from OEM sales. Have pretty much already voted that Windows 8 sucks.

          Now the choice comes down to do I update to Windows 8 next year, or do I install Cinnamon Mint instead? And if your coming off XP you'll find Cinnamon mint to be VERY XP like indeed. It may not run MS Office at the levels of Corporate excellence. But I have found it to had been good enough to have been able to open and edit MS Office Files that could not, nor would not render correctly under Open/Libre Office, and way able to pretty much everything I asked of it. Same holds true for Excel.

          I don't expect Business to run Microsoft Office on or in Linux. I'm sure Microsoft would have a few choice words about that commercial practice as well. So again the whole *.vba Script thing seems a bit of FUD to me. And if I were a corporate, that had the vision to see where Microsoft want to be heading in, I'd start looking into other Office Suites. I do understand how painful that would be, in the short term. Long term I think it would be a mistake not too....

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Linux

          Re: @Michael Habel

          By omitting any other category of software apart from these four, you are implying that special productivity software also includes every single script, craplet and two-bit pile of crud that most normal business users end up depending on in some way or other. Good luck even *finding* the original vendors, let alone discovering that they still have the staff and documentation to write a new version for Linux, let alone being told that you won't have to foot the entire development costs (and lost opportunity costs to the company) yourself because no-one else has ever asked for this.

          In short: they've got you by the short and curlies.

          Moral of the story, if you want control of your destiny, stick to stuff you can obtain the source for. Then at least, you can take that source code and hire someone to do the porting for you if they won't budge and you really need it, or you can use the source to find out how to port away from it.

        3. Vic
          Joke

          Re: @Michael Habel

          > Outlook is rated as "garbage"

          You can't really blame them :-)

          Vic.

    6. Dave K

      And here lies the problem. If you like the defaults than MS has chosen for Windows 8, then you're happy and can't see what the problem is. HOWEVER, if you do not like MS's defaults, you're more screwed than you've been with any version of Windows for decades. THAT is the problem. In almost all previous Windows, you could switch off newer design elements, you could turn the start menu into classic mode, you could go back to the theme from Windows 2000/98, you could shrink the Windows 7 task bar and show full names to make it immitate Vista/XP's task bar. Everything was tweakable.

      Windows 8 destroyed that ethic. Don't like the new start screen? Tough. Want Aero (or even some slightly more rounded buttons)? Tough. Want to pull back the menus in Windows Explorer? Tough. None of these can be changed back without having to install a plethora of third party tools. If you don't like MS's choices with Windows 8, you're stuck. And that is the problem with it.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Many people are complaining because they will have to support Windows 8 and Metro as part of their job, and inexperienced users who have only really got a basic grasp of XP / 7 are going to be thrown in the deep end when they buy a new PC and encounter Metro. Quite how they are supposed to know to close a Metro program that they have to drag it to the bottom of the screen, especially as some users still struggle with double clicking, let alone anything more complex! Whether or not I shut up and put Linux on my machine, doesn't help them, although for that Mint 13 with MATE in my experience makes a decent XP replacement / upgrade for most people with little complaint. (The 'power users' probably already have a Linux distribution of some kind installed, and Windows 7 Professional naturally, so don't need any help).

      As for IOS being for posers, where as that was once probably the case, the Ipad and Iphone are now virtually mainstream, albeit at the higher end of the cost spectrum. And IOS is not a desktop operating system, though I would say it is far preferable to Metro. As someone else has stated, what is an IOS laptop anyway?

      OS X (assuming thats what you meant), IOS and Linux anyway all have far more useful and better software than Metro, which has no killer programs going for it, just the usual waffle about an official facebook interface coming out (which is bizarre on a desktop computer with a web browser) By your own admission of using Start-8 (which I always think sounds like a song by the early 90s rave act Altern-8), you are basically endorsing Windows 7, which for some reason since Windows 8 has come in, the Windows 8 fanboys have made out to be a crude, crash prone mess, with a 'horrible start menu' (that has served users very well and still does) for some inexplicable reason.

      1. Yag

        What?

        "they are supposed to know to close a Metro program that they have to drag it to the bottom of the screen"

        ...

        I guess i'll have to lose the habit to temporary drag the application windows down in order to see the one right under them.

        Nah, screw this crap. Any Win 7 still up for sale somewhere?

    8. Greg D

      Whilst I actually agree with your overall point, I had to downvote you for the following reasons:

      - Mac runs OSX, which is loosely derived from a Linux kernel

      - IOS is Cisco's network OS

      - iOS is the iPhone/iPad OS

      (note the small 'i' on CrApple's shit).

      There is also the point that Win8 is actually slightly worse than Win7 for most people. If I could just get the under-the-hood upgrades and do away with literally everything else, I'd be happy.

      I also have to say MS don't make it easy on themselves with their frankly draconian licensing models and upgrade path restrictions. They only manage to come out of it OK because of their size and the fact they already have such a foothold in the market. Any other software house would fold under the backlash and lack of sales if they used MS's business models.

      Give the users what they want when they want. I've lost count how many times they have had to backtrack on incredibly poor decision making. And I'd bet most of those decisions (the bad ones, not the backtracking) were made by Ballsup Ballmer.

      1. alisonken1
        Stop

        Actually, OSX is not Linux

        It's derived from BSD.

        And if you _really_ want an earful, log onto any of the *SD channels and mention that *SD is like linux

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        MacOS is not Linux

        I don't think the original poster was referring to Cisco in references to 'IOS' And the kernel on MacOS is based on Mach and BSD which although Unix is definitely not Linux.

      3. Michael Habel

        And I had to down vote you cause apparently you don't know sh--! If you think that OSX is based on Linux. Its actually based on BSD as any fule kno...

      4. magnetik
        FAIL

        Mac runs OSX, which is loosely derived from a Linux kernel

        If you're gonna go around correcting people you should at least get your facts right. OS X is not based on Linux. Here, go educate yourself:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)

    9. Daniel B.
      Flame

      @mike_ui

      It amazes me how people love bashing MS all the time. Those who say they'd rather install Linux then just install it and stop complaining

      I have on most of my desktop stuff at home. The WinXP install broke sometime around 2010. Still haven't reinstalled it or upgraded. Though you're spot on with the commercial software for some cases, which brings me to your other troll point:

      As for IOS, don't make me laugh. I've yet to meet an I.T professional who'd rather use that than Windows. IOS is for posers who like to sit there and look 'hip'. I like to actually *do* stuff with my PC other than watch YouTube or a few video's.

      Apart from the awful grammar/spelling mistakes that would make a Grammar Nazi explode (and mistaking OSX for IOS), yes you can do most of the stuff you do on Windows in OSX. And you can also do UNIXy stuff as well, which on Windows means either installing Services For Unix or a Linux VM. And a lot of IT professionals will choose OSX as their main OS, or even Linux above Windows. You're just hanging around with the actual posers.

      Hell, Windows 8 sucks so much I actually bit the bullet and switched (back) to Mac/OSX last year. And this is despite me hating the iZombie Fanboy effect, Apple's attitude under the last Jobs years and their patent trolling on round corners, iOS walled garden and such. But Microsoft's lame attempts at forcing themselves into their users is far more insulting than the Apple way. Far, far worse. Sure I could have simply bought a new laptop, wipe out W8 and install Linux but I would have been giving MS money for Win8, which I don't want to. Buying a Mac means I don't pay the MS tax.

    10. keithpeter Silver badge
      Linux

      yup

      "Those who say they'd rather install Linux then just install it and stop complaining..."

      Did that around 2008. No complaints.

      "Well, except when they have no useful software to run but they can always sit there looking at their nice desktop."

      Oddy enough, I've written around half a megaword, edited about 15 hours of audio and done a couple of (short) DVDs this year, as well as the maquette for a 400+ page textbook. And some statistical analysis of not quite small but not big data.

      Strange that.

    11. magnetik

      The fact that you call it an "IOS laptop" makes me think you really don't know very much about operating systems. I'd love to know what kind of software you develop, lol.

    12. robin thakur 1

      "I spent an entire evening using my mates IOS laptop."

      I think you lost me with this ridiculous clueless statement, there is no such thing as a laptop that runs iOS. Are you a real developer or are you working your way through a learn Visual Studio in 24 hours book? Besides the whole world has practically told MS where to stick Windows 8, and most smart phone and tablet platforms run on Linux or a Unix derivative...

      I'm a IT Pro, currently specialising in SharePoint and even I can see the writing on the wall for MS, their old business model is coming to the end of its useful life. FYI I use a Macbook Pro running windows in a VM because I do actually prefer OS X and pretty much always have, though Win 7 was nice. I have used OS X for more than "One evening" and can assure you that it is perfectly decent option and the idea that there is "no useful software" to run, particularly on OS X, hasn't been true for years. I only power up my Windows VM to develop with Visual Studio,. For everything else there is a mac alternative which is as good or better and integrates better with my other devices at home and work. I also built a machine that runs Windows 8 at home, but it is rarely used other than as Hyper-V host to connect to remotely for SP2013 development and nobody else in the house wants to use it, though not for lack of trying.

      I don't personally mind Windows 8 (the Hyper-V host is at least useful) but I don't think business generally wants it, from my feedback from users and key stakeholders. It hasn't had the wider take up from non business users to force a tipping point of adoption into business the way the iPhone and iPad did back in the day and is still regarded as a colourful oddity which Microsoft might nix in the next full version. Seeing Metro on Windows Server 2012 still has the power to make me chuckle...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    XP end-of-life is coming...

    So let's make it really, really painful for those who didn't jump when we told them to.

    1. Gray
      Childcatcher

      Re: XP end-of-life is coming...

      When the day approaches for Microsoft to actually pull the plug on XP, and it becomes unavoidably obvious that significant numbers of people will lose their entire home computer investment -- hardware, software, and applications -- because the Win8 upgrade bloat is incompatible with everything they've depended on, the resulting public relations disaster may prove to be a painfully bitter experience for MS stockholders.

      1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

        Re: significant numbers of people will lose their entire home computer investment

        Wait a minute, are you saying that when MS stops supporting XP all XP PCs in the world will stop booting and become doorstops like a broken Xbox ?

        Somehow I don't think so.

        1. Michael Habel

          Re: significant numbers of people will lose their entire home computer investment

          No not broken, but given how "open" XP was, and continues to be! To the Worlds hackers I'm sure that most sane people will no longer wish to continue using XP sometime shortly after. It'll likely take another Stuxnet like attack to finally kill XP off. But, with Microsoft refusing any further support for XP. Just how long do you think it would take someone to write a particularly nasty piece of Code that nukes every instance of XP.

          1. Duffaboy

            Re: significant numbers of people will lose their entire home computer investment

            nasty piece of Code that nukes every instance of XP. Didn't you mean Windows Update

          2. Ken Hagan Gold badge

            Re: significant numbers of people will lose their entire home computer investment

            "Just how long do you think it would take someone to write a particularly nasty piece of Code that nukes every instance of XP."

            Most domestic users don't apply updates promptly (if at all) and most users that do are also the users who are running non-administratively, not running every damn attachment that comes their way and ignoring the phishing emails, all whilst located behind a corporate firewall that will continue to provide up-to-date AV protection. In practice, then, plenty of people are already living in the April 2014 world and the sky hasn't fallen in. I expect quite a few XP installations to continue running (malware-free) pretty much indefinitely, perhaps as VM images once the original hardware craps out.

            1. Michael Habel

              Re: significant numbers of people will lose their entire home computer investment

              So what happens when your AV supplier decides its time to kiss off XP?

              I think the best One could hope for might take you into early 2015... What then?

          3. Pookietoo
            Black Helicopters

            Re: someone to write a particularly nasty piece of Code

            I expect MSFT has that well in hand.

      2. Michael Habel

        Re: XP end-of-life is coming...

        People not buying Windows 7 or better yet 8... On Hardware that was for its time just capable of running XP

        People still holding on to XP... And are soon considering a life without Microsoft. Al-la Mint Linux....

        Either way what benefit is there in that for Microsoft Shareholders?

        Not much that I can see... I just want to know how Ballmer and Co. think that they can pown off such a shitty OS on their biggest Corporate Contractors. But I guess they are the lucky Ones that are still able to get Win7 Licenses.

    2. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge

      Re: XP end-of-life is coming...

      And most XP users will continue to use XP and not even notice or care.

      They'll upgrade to whatever comes with the next PC they buy when they find an app they want to use doesn't support XP and resign themselves to accepting the time to change has come. They'll comfort themselves with getting faster and better hardware while complaining they had to upgrade.

      There's a reason people are sticking with XP. They will continue to do so if they can and will put upgrading off for as long as possible.

      1. Michael Habel

        Re: XP end-of-life is coming...

        I imagine by this time next year XP will be a distant Memory for most People.

        With Microsoft refusing to maintain XP past April next Year, and XP Embedded support to continue into 2016, It wouldn't take a Computer Scientist with a PHD to figure out where to strike XP with Thermal Nuclear Zero-Day Attacks much past that point.

        In fact IIRC this Site ran a Story on that, not to long ago!

        <link>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/16/microsoft_warns_itll_be_handing_out_zero_days_for_windows_xp/</link>

  4. Rollie3pointOh

    People actually want more ways to buy Windows 8.x?

    *confused*

  5. guybrush45

    Windows 8.1 needs Price promotion like Windows 8

    I am running Windows 8.1 RTM and for me it really is a great OS (just my opinion) .....its a vast improvement over Windows 8 and has finally persuaded me to let go of my start menu replacement program & enjoy the new interface.

    The point I think Microsoft are missing here if they want people to give Windows 8.1 a go is, they need another price promotion as in Windows 8.1 being available for a "song" until Jan 31st 2014 in the same way they did at the release of Windows 8.

    I'm amazed they think that people who have steered clear of Windows 8 and are clinging to Windows 7 & XP will suddenly flock to Windows 8.1 with no "carrot" whatsoever....for me it just won't happen. People who wouldn't buy Windows 8 for "peanuts" when it was released are not now gonna pay top dollar for Windows 8.1 coz Microsoft say "it's better now honest".....Strikes me as very poor marketing.....and that's just a shame....

    SimonC

    1. Test Man

      Re: Windows 8.1 needs Price promotion like Windows 8

      No need really - most people buy new versions of Windows only when it comes with a new device. So no real need to convince people to upgrade current non-Windows 8 PCs - they'll come eventually anyway.

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