About customers complaining about no pre-installed software.

How about doing the fair way: when they choose the computer, ask what preinstalled software do they want - the one that cost, say 100$, one that cost 500$, but have more functionality (office) or one that have all the functionality and more and is completely free of charge.

Now thats fair competition.

An option of having no software shouldnt be a problem in that light.

That would force microsoft to decrease their prices or come up with another, less aggresive OEM licence.

Thank you 3x2

The most useful and relevant comment posted so far.

Acer suck

Acer no longer ship an operating system with their machine, just a recovery partition and (if you're lucky a blank DVD to write it to).

I've just had to configure two Acer desktops which were bloated with loads of rubbish "Acer Empowering" software, including wireless USB dongle software, drivers and utilities for devices that weren't even included with it, not to mention Norton AV and cheap cacky DVD playing and writing software (again, the machine didn't even have a DVD writer)

@Dave Cumming

"Someone else used a car as an example.. would this guy go and buy an Astra VXR, then sue and say actually I didn't want alloys, air con, power steering etc etc.. what I really wanted was the basic model, so its Vauxhalls fault."

No, the difference is that if it was a car the guy could buy the basic model. He can spec an entry level car with no frills and basic cloth. The fancy alloys, Air-Con and 500W sound system would be on the options list.

Sure you can spec a different engine (processor) but if every car dealer/manufacturer insisted on you buying a £2K integrated Sat-Nav - on a £7K car you planned to daily drive the same route 5 miles to work and back - you'd think that was a bit rich, cos you could buy one for £120 from Tescos if you wanted one.

How stupid people can be

This is proof how stupid people can get. This case is about choice. I bet those who say "go somewhere else" or "it's like buying a car without engine" never passed their primary school exam.

It is simple matter that we should all have a choice to exclude the piece we do not need/want. eg. Go to Dell website, try to order a desktop PC without OS, monitor, keyboard, mouse. You will find the best you can is to convince them to take out the monitor after you make a rather long phone call to their sales rep.

I'm sure if you walk in a car dealer, you can ask to take out want you do not want, or change the part to your spec, as long as it fits to the car you are going to buy. Why we cannot do the same with computer?

I know some of you may not like MS but....

...quote from lxer.com

"You can do your own searches on Google if you want to find people who resell Compal, Quanta, Wistron, Asus, Clevo, Mitac, FIC, AOpen, and Uniwill. Most of them will sell you a laptop without an operating system or they will install Linux on it for you"

It's no wonder the french get a bad reputation over here in the UK.

My own analogy:

When I go to my local restaurant to buy a 'Happy' meal I dont sue the company for 'making' me buy the bloomin' toy.

Not unknown in the UK...

From Dell indeed :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm

@Mr.Clark

If they had to sell laptops that might have other OS than windows installed, it would give them some incentive to either standardise or release compatible drivers.

William

HAHAHAHA

Vive la France, and I am a Brit living on the continent - obviously!

I am just so funned to read your comments, guyz! Keep 'em coming!

I know the Brits @Home like to get stufft, just look at the prices they are happy to pay for goods like cars or computers compared to continental Europe or US.

One exception seems to be vaseline, due to popular demand I know you get it over there real cheap, what a relief ;-)!

However, you must understand that some people over 'ere on the continent don't like that. We want choice!

@Daniel van Niekerk: Comparing computers to cars, you should note that you can customize your car when you buy it, if you do not want that cd player but a cd/dvd/mp3 player you can get one - same here. And when you order Mac meal, do you want to be forced to drink coke? Because 95% of people choose coke Mac4Dumb will be selling coke with every meal, if you want another drink, you are free to buy an additional one - but you will not get a refund on the coke!

@andy

Besides, I know windows is just as useless as the bloomin' toy, but it makes up quite a bit more on the price than that toy made In PRC by 6 year-olds ... which might cost 0.0001 pence + shipping.

It should be pretty easy to deliver separate restore cd's with computers which install the software on the computer:

one for windows

one for linux

one for FreeBSD etc - why not?

Come on stop the bs!

I don't understand

How can a court order you to sell a product that you don't sell?

Acer sells laptop's with Windows. They have actively made a decision

not to sell laptops without an OS - why? - thats their issue.

Now for analogies:

Should Becker be forced to sell's GPSs without Windows CE and Nav software?

Should Ford be forced to sells cars without ECUs? for the car fans ^^ (And yes - the motor would still run with an alternate ECU)

@I don't understand

> How can a court order you to sell a product that you don't sell?

When the product you sell unfairly and forcibly compels a purchaser to have something included with it which he doesn't want - where what's included isn't a necessary and integral part.

Ok, some sort of OS is necessary for the Acer laptop - but it's unfair to *force* any specific OS because the cost of that OS and its installation is all factored into the purchase price. This lack of choice doesn't apply to Macs because their architecture isn't open; it's never been designed as a 'fit your own' system like the descendants of the IBM-PC open architecture commonly available today and the Mac OS is more sensibly viewed as 'integral', not pre-installed.

> Should Becker be forced to sell's GPSs without Windows CE and Nav software?

Of course not - but this analogy isn't relevant because the GPS unit isn't designed in the first place as a chunk of technology which won't do anything until 'an' OS is installed by someone. The GPS software is an integral part of a single-function and closed unit.

France law

I've read many comments, and something that didn't seem to come up is the fact that in France there is a law prohibiting "la vente liée" ("bound sale"), and that it is on the basis of this law that the lawsuit was won (if you read French, you can have more details on this story here: http://www.zdnet.fr/actualites/informatique/0,39040745,39373559,00.htm). A "bound sale" is when you are forced to buy something you don't want in order to get something else you want. In this case (and it is not the first one in France: it's just the more severe to date), the judge stated that forcing people to pay for some software in order for them to get the computer they want was illegal.

I understand the point that this guy could have bought an OS-less computer in the first place and never bother going to court, but the real legal issue here (IANAL, but studying to be one) is that, from the point of view of the France law, he has a right to buy a specific computer (say, an Acer computer, because he likes the hardware specs or the aftersale service or any reason he wants) and not be forced to pay for anything else. Many courts in France have concluded that software is not an integral part of a computer, like would be, say, wheels for a car, and is more alike to, say, DVDs versus a DVD player (a DVD player manufacturer could not force you to buy some movies in order to buy their DVD player).

Some people want to fight for their rights, others prefer not bother, and it's one's choice.

@ shrodi

Hits the nail on the head. Well done.

on cars, computers, et al.

First, in France, as a matter of fact, you can choose the brand of the tires your car comes with. It doesn't mean the car company has to sell the car bare, but the consummer has a right to make his choice and not be bound by third parties exclusivity deals passed in his back.

Second, the damages for Acer were steep because they basicaly told the judge to F**k off, that the bundle was not breakable into subparts. I don't have all the details, but I think the plaintiff went with some quotations for indivual, street priced, softwares in the bundle, so the judge simply told Acer : "unboundable ? see : let me add this up", and *bang*. It's just a matter of burden of the proof. All Acer had to do was to quote OEM prices for each part of the bundle, but had they done that, they'd probably violated their exclusivity contracts and exposed the true price they are quoted for windows. One of the biggest trade secret in the industry, and something you can bet would have made microsoft retaliate.

Bound Sale?

@Shrodi:

The problem with that law is that it is archaic and does not consider the concept of a "system". The plaintard in this case bought a SYSTEM. In this case, the system consists of hardware (laptop computer) and software (OS and bundled miscellania). If he only wanted to buy the hardware, he should have gone and bought one. A few minutes with google will bring up a great number of French computer retailers willing to sell you just the hardware. The plaintard was a cleverdick who thought he'd try this law out, and unfortunately found a judge xenophobic enough to rule in his favour.

Betcha that if MS was a French company this wouldn't have happened. Anyone else noticed how the most protectionist country in Europe is also the first to moan about monopolies and anti-trust?

So, the correct expression is "Bound sale", you say? I'm headed across the English channel to a Renault dealer to demand a car with no engine so I can install something other than the horrible engines they use. Car for £20K, then get a refund for double the value, so I should get an engine-free car AND £20K cash at the end of this. Excellent!