Dell bars Win 7 refunds from Linux lovers Dell has told a Linux-loving Reg reader that he can't receive a refund on the copy of Windows 7 that shipped with his new Dell netbook because it was bundled with the machine for "free". In October, another Reg reader succeeded in gaining a $115 (£70.34) refund from the computer maker after he rejected the licence for …
"As 100+ comments on this article have stated over and over again, the PC vendor is different than the OS vendor."
Ah but the PC vendor IS the OS vendor too, you see Dell is responsible for all technical support for the Dell version of Windows that is installed on their machines. All Dell really has to do is refund the value of the O/S (which might actually be a paltry sum on a per-unit basis) and have the customer acknowledge that software technical support is not available to him.
The car analog doesn't work.
Since the amount at stake is probably under the limit for going to small claims court, that might be a useful route to follow in countries that have such courts. It's supposed to be lawyer-free, btw.
The amusing sequel comes when Dell ignores the judgement you will get against them; you then sic the bailiffs on them and have a truck or an office building seized to be auctioned off to pay the judgement.
AFAICR Wrong! - when they ignore the SCC judgement you move on to a winding up order.
You can ask the court to infer by thier failure to pay the judgement that they cannot pay and as such should be wound up. A winding up order is issued and they have so many days to pay you and prove they have done so before their bank accounts are frozen and receivers are called in.
In the case of the gent who took a certain mobile phone company to court to get his 50UKP back, he decided that just after the winding up order was instigated was a good time to go on holiday (stopped answering the door and phone). Note that simply posting a cheque does not satify the court they have paid thier debt - they have to get your signature to that effect.
He said it is so much fun to have a nast corp running aroud like a headless chickens trying to track you down for your signature...
Jacqui
It is indeed very easy to make a 'small claim' online in the UK - simply go here...
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices/mcol/index.htm
It only costs £25 and is indeed lawyer free, in most cases where there is any reasonable basis for a claim (as there most certainly is here) the defendant will either fail to respond in time (meaning you win, known as judgement by default) or they will settle without prejuice before it goes to an actual court where theyd be forced to pay lawyers and turn up in person.
I used this method to get a refund out of PayPal (they settled without prejudice for mu full claimed amount + my £25 costs) when a Hong Kong seller refused to refund a knock-off item and PayPal (as usual) tried to wriggle out of honouring their guarantee.
(If the defendant is large company then getting your lolly should be no problem, however, it could be considerably more difficult to actually get a resulting court order enforced against a private individual or sole trader for example.)
I recently bought (and typing on it now) a new mini-notebook for US$100 cheaper as it came pre-installed with Ubuntu 8.10. It's an Olevia X13D-815HK with 2G ram, 250G HD, dual-core AMD L325 cpu.
I'm absolutely delighted with it. With my older notebook, I could not get function-key compatibility with my BenQ projector. Now, I can through the HDMI link. I can view my desktop + video at the same time on the notebook and via the projector at the same time. With XP in my older notebook, I could view a video on the projector only when the notebook LCD was off.
Search for brands that offer you a choice of Linux or Windows. This is better because you know for sure that the hardware will be fully compatible with Linux. I had a bit of bother with the wi-fi because it was a newer version to the driver included in Ubuntu. However, a search of the Ubuntu forums directed me to a PPA that had the driver. Ever since then, it has been plain sailing.
More and more brands from Asia are including Linux in their offerings.
This post has been deleted by its author
Listen Mr Know-it-All, some off us happen to like realtively good design and pukka hardware in one box, if the option is legally available to dump the MS tax, then so be it.
I use to build all my own kit, but then got a life and let me tell you, after a hard day slaving over other people's PCs and assorted software/hardware problems at work, I simply want to go home and chill by switching on hardware that works without fault and and O/S that doesn't cack itself at the sight of a new device!
I know quite a few Windows and Unix admins, very talented ones, where I am, that swear by Macs and OSX for home use, even using Apple laptops in preference to their tools-of-trade, the reason? Same as quoted above, we need to switch off and use kit that actually works, if not then have someone to shout ourselves, just like our users do to us!
If the Genious customer had ordered a netbook with Linux, he wouldn't have to get the Windows version. Dell has that option available, the Ubuntu version is £199, the Win7 is £229, but once you order Windows, that's what you get. How hard is that to understand?
He's just a cheap bstrd trying to cut some cost....
Maybe he thought instead of saving £30 he could buy it with Se7en and get the full OS price refunded, I assuming that he was going to return the Windows key stuck on the bottom of his machine in an "as new" condition as well? Dell (and every other OEM) get very little on every sale of "OS" included if they are going to process a return for something that wasn't even priced separately any profit made would be gone, can't blame them really, that said, maybe if there's more demand for "bare machines" then they'll start doing them, but I guess the demand isn't significant enopugh yet.
16:04:28 Customer Mike Imrie Initial Question/Comment: Choice of operating system
16:05:03 System You are now being connected to an agent. Thank you for using Dell Chat
16:05:03 System System Connected with Bhanu_Koduru
16:05:08 Customer Mike Imrie Hi
16:05:18 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Hi
16:05:28 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Thank you for contacting Dell Sales Chat. This is Bhanu, your Sales Advisor. Please give me a moment while I review your query. In order to Help you better can you provide me with your email address and Telephone number in case we get Disconnected I can call
16:05:33 Agent Bhanu_Koduru How can I help you
16:06:08 Customer Mike Imrie I'm a proud owner of a number of Dell systems, and each of them runs Linux. My question is, how do I buy a system from you, without paying for software I don't want?
16:07:28 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Can I know your requirement and which machine are you looking at ?
16:08:26 Customer Mike Imrie Anything. I have needs for mini-netbooks, laptops and desktop systems.
16:09:08 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Ok.......Let me inform you that we cannot degrade any system
16:09:25 Customer Mike Imrie degrade?
16:10:23 Agent Bhanu_Koduru means if any comes with the specs online we cannot take it out any specs
16:10:48 Customer Mike Imrie So, which systems do you sell that don't come with Windows?
16:11:18 Agent Bhanu_Koduru We dont have any machine without OS
16:11:44 Customer Mike Imrie Which systems do you sell that come with a Linux OS?
16:12:43 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Let me check for you
16:18:14 Agent Bhanu_Koduru We dont have any machine with the Linux OS
16:18:34 Customer Mike Imrie er, what about http://www1.euro.dell.com/uk/en/home/Laptops/ct.aspx?refid=notebooks&s=dhs&cs=ukdhs#subcats=&navla=&a=65235~0~399477
16:20:14 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Do you want the mini netbook ?
16:20:45 Customer Mike Imrie I want to know what other products you sell with a Linux (Ubuntu) OS
16:21:19 Agent Bhanu_Koduru
Bhanu_Koduru pushes page, http://configure.euro.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=ukdhs1&kc=yy&oc=N00B1001&x=0&y=0
16:21:29 Agent Bhanu_Koduru Only this netbook has the Linux OS
16:21:57 Customer Mike Imrie Why no other systems?
16:23:14 Agent Bhanu_Koduru It is not available at the moment although it is mentioned on the technical specs of Precisions Desktops
16:23:33 Customer Mike Imrie OK, Thanks for your help.
Does this mean that I can contact Dell and get a free copy of Windows 7?
If not then it's part of the cost and can be removed / refunded as necessary - as per the EULA.
Of course, if they're saying the licence doesn't apply and they're authorised to make such statements on behalf of Microsoft then that's a whole different ball game...........
"If not then it's part of the cost and can be removed / refunded as necessary - as per the EULA"
The EULA only says that not agreeing to it and returning the software unused is a valid case for a refund, i.e. Microsoft will refund the reseller for it as if it were faulty. Dell however CAN and apparently DO choose not to refund separate components of their products just the whole product, i.e. if you do not agree to the EULA Dell can choose to refund the whole item on its return and still abide by the EULA.
They would only be breaking the law if they refused to refund the software license AND refused to accept not agreeing with the EULA as a reason to refund the whole item.
In terms of the cost they are simply saying there is no associated cost with the license i.e. they are not going to tell you the component cost of each system and work out how much to refund, i.e. what is the processor in the same system worth on any particularly day? depends on lots of things right, and Dell would therefore not associate a cost to that either for a particular system at any time. That is what they mean, they look at the total cost of building a machine and sell it at the appropriate price, end of story.
If Dell does not want to refund peoples and deal with this angst Dell should start offering Linux and naked system (No OS) for every computer configuration they have and make it cheaper. If you make the OS an option and show the real cost of Windows peoples who pick Windows would have done so by choice. You will not have to waste customers supports paid time on dealing with Linux users who want their refund! Off course MS would freak out but you're freaking Dell! Microsoft is suppose to be your bitch not the other way around!
We've decided to sell bare metal machines as an option now, our Desktop machines cost £500 with windows 7 and we think it would be good to let customers de -select the OS...
<some time later>
Yes we've done it, and now the no OS price has been held to £500 and the Win 7 price is £530, a success I think....
<blank looks from rest of board>
Although we've had to increase our stock storage and picking, re-negotiate with our disk supplier to provide imagaged and non imaged disks, increased and re-trained sales and technical staff, accepted extra returns from people who didn't know they needed an OS or couldn't install anything else due to lack of technical knowlege or the face that netbooks don't come with CD drives changed our testing for OS and non OS machines we've really kept the costs down, oh and of course now we have been recieving complaints that we don't host all the Linux drivers for the hardware and most of the non OS machines end up with Linux installed our customers expect us to host the drivers and updates.
Windows may not be everybodies favourite, but defaulting to the most popular operating system and not offering another (nor even none) is cheaper for Dell and therefore cheaper for the customer, the reason why Dell (and other large manufacturers) can sell a lot of kit for a reasonable price is purely down to "box shifting" economies of scale, selling bare machines (as well) would cost more overall.
"Although we've had to increase our stock storage and picking, re-negotiate with our disk supplier to provide imagaged and non imaged disks, increased and re-trained sales and technical staff, accepted extra returns from people who didn't know they needed an OS or couldn't install anything else due to lack of technical knowlege or the face that netbooks don't come with CD drives changed our testing for OS and non OS machines we've really kept the costs down, oh and of course now we have been recieving complaints that we don't host all the Linux drivers for the hardware and most of the non OS machines end up with Linux installed our customers expect us to host the drivers and updates."
Although there are some valid points about logistics, it isn't always the case (or may not even be the case generally) that the OS is ready to use upon first power-up. Thus, for machines with CD/DVD/USB ports, it's entirely possible to supply boot media and not image any disks at all. As for updates and support, vendors could quite easily nominate others to provide that, just as they do right now with Microsoft.
"Windows may not be everybodies favourite, but defaulting to the most popular operating system and not offering another (nor even none) is cheaper for Dell and therefore cheaper for the customer, the reason why Dell (and other large manufacturers) can sell a lot of kit for a reasonable price is purely down to "box shifting" economies of scale, selling bare machines (as well) would cost more overall."
Sure, testing the kit with Windows and knowing it works allows them to ship the same kit in large quantities, but you only have to do that with one instance of that kit, and then the price of verification dissolves into near nothing as the volume increases. You're implying that testing some Linux variants is either obscenely expensive that it significantly affects the per-unit cost, or that such testing somehow stops being effective when some random number of units is exceeded, which is absurd. And you're also suggesting that manufacturers are adding super secret sauce when most of them are just using what Intel and partners suggest, much of which probably won't involve a serious amount of additional verification work, and most of which can probably be contracted out to the people doing the real engineering.
The perverse thing about arguments claiming that it's too complicated for vendors can be trivially undermined by observing that for various enterprise models, Dell already supports Linux. Such arguments, just like those which assert that no-one is really being harmed or that "it's only a few quid", are unfortunate reminders that many people can't be bothered to think further than their own immediate personal convenience, happily throwing issues like choice or competition overboard if they can get what *they* want.
You weren't meant to take my board discussion as anything but an illustration, I'll summarise;
Adding a new option, piece of kit, configuration will always increase the cost of logistics, while it may be counter-intuitive to think that a "bare" machine will cost the same or more, you have to consider the size of the market (i.e. the profit) of holding an extra product line (for each machine). Dell have chosen to use pre-imaged disks, this is obviously a financial benefit to them, they buy the disks with the image on (for only a few cents per unit more), no need to distibute media, this may only save a few $, but no packing, picking, stock all adds up.
There's also the indirect costs, Dell will be expected to hold Linux drivers, expected to answer questions about installing on to a bare machine, they *could* refuse, but what if the USB, network card, screen driver doesn't work, is it the driver or is it the hardware, they will be expected to have an answer or expect a return, look how good their Windows support is, put in a tag reference and you get a list of drivers for optimum stability (for your exact machine), should they do this for Linux or say "you're on your own, no warranty for bare machines", either way they couldn't win.
Finally, how much do they actually make on an OS? $10, $20, $50 I suspect (although don't know) that they make very little on each licence, which brings us all the way back to the point, would the extra cost of supplying another line (and all it's associated costs) be more than the the money they make on selling a machine with Windows?
This would be/should be so but a little bird in my head tweats that the contract between Dell and M$ is quite handcuffing, for Dell (something to the effect you will sell only our crapware, except for a couple of crippled models, and they WILL be more expensive than the Crapware laden kit; violate this and you can kiss your OEM windows pricing goodbye) and then hiding it under that favorite device of all mega-corps, and NDA agreement.
Actually, there are plenty of bootable tools for "burn-in testing" a system, if Dell even does test each and every one of their systems before shipping, which I sincerely doubt. So you're talking complete FUD on those two counts.
As for "bleeding edge hardware" in a Dell. Don't make me laugh.
The real reason they don't sell computers without an OS is because Microsoft would spank them silly.
...let the consumer make it. Anyway, the burn in tests will be done from the "support" partition they image on to the drives. Only a complete moron would remove that as tech. support will want you to have gone through some tests to get error codes etc for hardware issues.
Still no need for the machine to be infected with a full Windows deployment.
Dell? Test? You think they test them? Ha ha! Funny!
They flash the HDs with a standard WinXp/Vista/7 image, shove the HD into a pre-made case of kit, box it up and send it to the customer! No one tests the kit other than simply powering on the system to ensure it won't be DOA!
Testing! Funny stuff!
At the risk of being torn apart for sticking up for the eebil Dell, if you buy a windows based PC you can hardly complain when you recieve a PC with windows on it.
Its like buying a new car, then a week later asking them to take the seats back because you've decided you don't like the colour, and have found the ones you want at another dealer.
Don't want windows? Don't buy a PC with windows installed. Seems pretty straight forward to me
"Its like buying a new car, then a week later asking them to take the seats back because you've decided you don't like the colour, and have found the ones you want at another dealer."
Another bad analogy. The problem in the consumer PC market is that all the seats are blue, for every major manufacturer. THERE IS NO REAL CHOICE! Dell offer NO REAL CHOICE (one shitty netbook does not count). Nor to HP, Toshiba, Sony etc.
I'll type this slowly so people can keep up.
There.
Is.
No.
Real.
Choice.
But i've just googled "linux laptop" in shopping and immeadiately found lenovo, acer, asus and HP laptops with linux pre-installed. Maybe if you look for a linux laptop, you will actually find a linux laptop. So there is real choice.
I'll type this slowly so you can keep up.
There.
Is.
Real.
Choice.
C'mon, so me the links. I ahve asked time and again on here for links to the ACTUAL PRODUCT and NO ONE can provide them
I know the HP is a lie, because I have tried. Yeah, you'll get Google results but they go no where, or they vanish into the quagmire of USA business account handling. Urgh. UK site, consumer device; prove it.
I would LOVE to be wrong.
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&q=laptops+with+linux&cid=15770955273163762942&sa=title#p
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&q=laptops+with+linux&show=dd&cid=12324337527515291832&sa=title#p
Next idiotic comment? Pretty sure neither of these are netbooks, nor crippled. And hp offers several probooks with linux on them. It's not my fault if you are too stupid to use google, but maybe you shouldn't post comments on here before you learn?
And just in case you think these are home made versions, here's a page from hp's own site
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en/sm/WF04a/321957-321957-64295-3955552-3955552.html
So, i'll take an apology as soon as you can get your head out of your a$$
There are plenty of companies who give you the option of buying a PC without an OS installed. But as someone previously said, you also have the option of building your own.
Just because the major players cater to what most of the PC public wants doesn't mean there aren't companies feeding the niche market.
By the same token, personally I can't see why Dell don't offer the choice, as they offer the opportunity to tailor build your own PC, so surely an OS option should be do-able.
I just did as you suggested - no results (beyond a few components).
http://tinyurl.com/ycblsmc
C'mon Steve 44, put your money where your mouth is and show me the hard links (UK site, consumer device, any Linux distro, direct from HP, Sony, Tosh, ANY major OEM).
Or I can only conclude you are in serious error with reality.
I did post something with three links in, guess moderators didn't like it.
Try this one
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/uk/en/sm/WF04a/321957-321957-64295-3955552-3955552.html
Look in the opearting system options. Pretty sure "SUSE LINUX" is a linux operating system. Can't be sure though.
Try harder.
Thanks for proving me right. Those links go no where. Yes, the first page shows SUSE for some notebooks. Now, click on the clink for one of them (say the 4710s), SUSE no longer an option. So then you select "All models". Still no SUSE.
I can't find the page where I can actually BUY this laptop.
AND this is appears to be a business device.
This is exactly what I was going on about - thank you again for helping me prove it.
No apology forthcoming, there is still no link to a page where a consumer can buy a PC from a major OEM either naked or with a non-MS OS. I know there are landing pages for business customers, but they lead no where if you want to buy on-line.
Dell's singular offering does not count as a real choice in my book.
That leaves Joe Schmoe with no viable choice other than Windows (tech savvy users can always get what they want (either going to a niche retailer or DIY), but I am not thinking about them).
Don't misunderstand; I want to be proven wrong, I want people to have a choice, I want to issue that apology/thanks for getting a link.
It's not happened yet.
And yes, I have been looking too. I can find Linux systems from other sources, but again that is not what I am talking about. I am pretending to be the average consumer going to the "household names". When you do that it Windows or nothing.
So what happens if you buy a car, and decide to install a nice set of luxury leather bucket seats?
Are you obliged to keep or destroy the original seats?
Or.. Can you whack em up on Ebay and get a few quid back.
Or.. Can you leave them on the kerb, free to a good home.
Or.. Can you put them on Freecycle, Loot or any other means of getting someone to take the things away and put them to some use?
Because this is the big difference between a car part and Windows. You can at least give the car part away. You can't do anything with Windows. Including giving it away.. These days, you don't even get a copy of the install disk.
If you don't want windows, you buy windows and ask the retailer for a refund. That has always been the way. It doesn't become an idiot strategy just because someone changed the rules without telling anyone. Only now that we know the new rules does it become an idiot strategy. New strategy: shop elsewhere.
Penguin because I'm running Linux on a (never windowized) Dell.
Some people have suggested ordering a machine from Dell and returning it under the EULA conditions just to piss them off. They would be much more pissed off (and it is more likely to take place) If everyone called Dell and offered to buy a laptop then decline when they will not supply one without a Windows licence.
It would appear on the sales figures as 'lost sales' and be a much larger figure than refunds would be likely to reach.
... Unfortunantly, when you go looking for win7 eula from Microsoft, available at :
http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualProperty/UseTerms/Default.aspx
Then, when you make the choice of:
From manufacturer
win7
home basic (or any based on multiple random checks)
eglish
then wait for the pdf to load, it seems that the eula shows:
"By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, contact the manufacturer or installer to determine its return policy. You must comply with that policy, which might limit your rights or require you to return the entire system on which the software is installed."
So unless it has changed since this started, its up to the manufacturer/installer to decide if they will give a refund or not.
It does not say "If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit."
This appears to only apply if you purchase as "packaged" software (buy the software separately in its own box it may appear) or from Microsoft directly.
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