back to article London fire brigade outsources 999 control centre to Capita

The London fire brigade is to outsource its 999 control centre to Capita. The deal will see Capita run the call centre on behalf of the brigade and also supply a new 999 control system. The 10-year agreement is expected to save the brigade £5m over its lifetime and is expected to go live later this year. Under the contract, …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Now taking bets on when the new system starts messing up dispatch.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      No bets.....

      When has privatization of a service actually improved the service?

      How long until a call center in Mumbai starts being used? Confusion abound and lack of basic local knowledge causes incorrect dispatch!

      1. Magnus_Pym

        When has privatization of a service actually improved the service?

        ... or saved money?

    2. peter 45
      FAIL

      Actual conversation with Roadside Assistance Company

      Leaving out all the 'pardon' and 'I cannot understand, can you say it again'

      Him - (Said in almost unintelligible Indian accent) Hello. How may I help you?

      Me - My car has a puncture and I cannot undo the bolts. Can you send someone please?

      Him - Certainly. What is your postcode?

      Me - Um. Don't know. I'm on the hard shoulder of the motorway.

      Him - Can you knock on someones door to find out the post code?

      Me - No. I'm on the Motorway. There are no houses on a motorway.

      Him - Ok, can you see a streetname?

      Me - Errr. No. I'm on the M3 motorway.

      Him - Can you go to the end of the street and see if you can see a name?

      Me - Errr. No. I'm on a motorway. It doesn't have street names. Its called the M3. I'm on the M3 southbound just past junction 6.

      Him - ........Can you spell M3 please?

    3. Mark 65

      "The 10-year agreement is expected to save the brigade £5m over its lifetime and is expected to go live later this year."

      I think the suitable metric is how many lives are saved not a mere 500k per year that is probably an over-optimistic estimate anyhow. Will the calls be picked up in the UK or India?

  2. Tony Rogerson
    Childcatcher

    Offshore'd?

    I think a law should be put in place so that emergency service "call centres" should remain on the mainland and staffed by english speaking individuals you can actually understand, thereby not following the model by a lot of banks, ISP's, utility companies etc.

    My two cents.

    1. The BigYin

      Re: Offshore'd?

      The call centre will be UK, but the engines will be dispatched from the Dehil depot for tax reasons.

      And you will have to pay their road toll bill when they arrive.

    2. Phil Endecott

      Re: Offshore'd?

      > english speaking individuals you can actually understand

      The last time I phoned $telcom_provider, after the 5 levels of menus needed to reach a human, the guy started by telling me that he was in Coventry. He also proved easy to understand and was certainly a native English speaker.

      Unfortunately, EVERYTHING THAT HE TOLD ME WAS WRONG. Diametrically opposed to the correct answers.

      So no, a UK call centre doesn't solve all the problems by a long way.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    London's Burning

    "I'm sorry, we are currently experiencing very high call volumes. Your call has been placed in a queue and will be dealt with by one of our offshore customer service agents as soon as possible. Your call is important to us, and we thank you for your patience."

    ...and when you finally get through...

    "Our current lead time for dispatching a fire engine in your area is approximately 2 days. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this may cause."

    Not, you understand, because of London's fire fighters - but because Capita really are that crap, and would someone manage to introduce a lead time to breathing if they could figure out how.

  4. MrXavia
    Stop

    Londons Burning, Fetch the Engines... Fire Fire... Please hold...

    "Your call is important to us, we are sorry for the delay.."

    What a load of nonsense! we must stop this... I hope the person who signs the order is one of the people held responsible when someone dies due to this decision!

    And lets be honest, privatizing a service is bound to lead to lower quality, forget saving a pitiful 5million, i'd rather save lives!

  5. Hardcastle the ancient
    Coat

    Meh...

    There are too many Londoners anyway

    Mine's got a yellow waistcoat...

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      Re: Meh...

      Lincolnshire Police have already outsourced their control room to G4:

      http://thelincolnite.co.uk/2012/02/lincolnshire-police-sign-200m-outsourcing-contract-g4s/

      They are hoping to get some sort of kickback from G4 if other forces sign up, for the training and startup benefits G4 will learn from Nettleham. [1]

      [1] is putting a kettle on so very difficult?

  6. Alister

    Even if they don't offshore it...

    ...do you really want emergency calls and dispatch decisions being handled by minimum-wage call centre drones like the rest of Capita uses?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Even if they don't offshore it...

      Not just the drones, the managers are paid little more.

  7. James 51

    Anyone for another great fire of london?

    Glad I don't live in London right now.

  8. Christian Berger

    Whenever I need to explain why privatisation is a bad idea...

    ...and I don't want to use the US, because they are in a comparatively large an unpopulated area, I turn to the UK. With London apparently wasting more water than both Berlin and Hamburg combined need, and the inability to get even a simple ISDN phone line in some parts, I simply cannot understand why anybody there would think privatisation is a good idea.

    1. Mark 65

      Re: Whenever I need to explain why privatisation is a bad idea...

      "I simply cannot understand why anybody there would think privatisation is a good idea."

      Probably because we've been conditioned by experience to believe that the Government is far worse. The problem is more one of "why privatise instead of just kicking some civil service arses until things improve", as the private sector can waste just as much money but add a profit margin on top.

  9. Blofeld's Cat
    Stop

    The cost of living...

    "The 10-year agreement is expected to save the brigade £5m over its lifetime and is expected to go live later this year."

    On their own figures this scheme will "save" half a million a year. That is apparently the going rate for two dinners with David Cameron, and a trivial sum compared to what will be spent on lawyers the first time this goes wrong.

    There's more to life than money folks.

    1. cocknee

      Re: The cost of living...

      damn, I thought I'd be the first to make that observation/quip about Dave's dinners (takes hat off in deference)

      I love the phrase "expected to save" where in reality it'll cost 5x that more and that'll exclude the litigation.

      bastards!

  10. Scob

    Totally ridiculous

    Somebody, somewhere is making a lot of money from this and will not be around in a couple of years to be held accountable when the whole thing is a disaster. I totally dispair at the people who allow these sort of things to happen.

  11. jubtastic1
    Happy

    0118 999 881 999 119 7253

    Catchy number though.

    1. Annihilator
      Happy

      Re: 0118 999 881 999 119 7253

      Dear sir stroke madam. Fire, exclamation mark. Fire, exclamation mark. Help me, exclamation mark. Look forward to hearing from you

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I thought all the 999 services were paid for by our council tax, whats the point of paying the crap if your not receiving appropriate service for your funds.

  13. auburnman
    Joke

    Maybe

    Cameron is planning to destroy half of London in a massive insurance fraud. Might let us pay for the Olympics. Well, some of it anyway.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Reading Between The Lines

    "According to the London fire brigade, the contract will allow the service to focus on its core business of putting out fires and saving lives."

    Or "the contract will allow" the management to get practice of placing and running external contracts with a view to their future employment opportunities.

    1. Z-Eden
      WTF?

      Re: Reading Between The Lines

      Love how they imply that the LFB is actually a business that is supposed to turn a profit.

      Wonder if the contract has bonuses for the amount of calls answered and fires put out. I can easily see Crapita heavies wandering around town sucking between their teeth and loudly proclaiming that the building is a firetrap!

  15. Norman Hartnell
    Flame

    I wonder...

    ...if Crapita are being paid per call? Surely the LFB wouldn't have signed a contract giving them more money the more fires there are....would they?

    1. Blofeld's Cat
      Devil

      Re: I wonder...

      No, they just have access to the call data.

      "Hello. I am calling from FireEngineChasers dot com, I believe you had a chip-pan fire a few days ago. Had you considered suing the hell out of making a claim against the pan manufacturer , cooker supplier and potato growers, all on a no-win-no-fee basis..."

      "We also have some special offers on take-away meals..."

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Next service improvement

    The London Fire Corporation will allow for a tiered service. Pay more for a faster, 'guaranteed' response time.

  17. The BigYin

    How this will go

    "999 Emergency, which service please?"

    "Fire"

    "This is the fire service, your call may be recorded to help improve our service to you. Please listen to the following options: Press 1 if you are a member of out Conflagration Super-Savers Club, Press 2 if you wish to friend us on Facebook, Press 3 to hear our latest offers, Press 4 for billing information, Press 5 if you or a family member are currently burning to death"

    "5"

    "So you are burning to death. Press 1 if you can pay by credit card, Press 2 to speak to a colleague"

    "2"

    "Hello, I will be your advisor today. What is your problem?"

    "Oh dear god help us! The house is on fire and the babies are stuck on the top floor. HELP US!"

    "Please do not shout at me, or I will cancel this call and report you to the police for verbal abuse. What is your problem?"

    "Our house is on fire."

    "OK, you house is on fire. Have you tried turning the house on and off?"

    "No...I can't turn the fire off. If I could, I wouldn't need to call. My babies are burning!"

    "I've warned you before, do not shout at me. We are following a specially design script that has been proven to increase our sales. Now, what version of fire do you have?"

    "That question makes no sense. Just send a fire engine already."

    "Ok, you cannot turn the fire off and do not know what version. How do you intend to pay for the call out?"

    "Pay?"

    "Yes, we don't have your phone number as a registered account. How you wish to pay for the home visit from our engineers?"

    "What? Look, this is an emergency. People are dying."

    "I appreciate that this is a stressful time for you, but our engineers are highly trained and will resolve your issue as quickly as they can. Can you pay by credit card."

    "Ok, debit, 123456789, expires 01/2014"

    "Thank you, I have entered your support request into the system. An engineer will be with you within 48 hours. Is there anything else I can help you with today?"

    "...."

    1. Keep Refrigerated
      Thumb Up

      Re: How this will go

      You forgot....

      *Scratchy Hold Music*

      "Did you know that you can now log in and report a fire via our website www.helpmyhouseisburningdown.com. Log on now to receive a 10% discount on your next emergency call out..."

      Also after reporting the fire, the obligatory:

      "Would you be interested in filling out a customer satisfaction survey..."

      "No thanks, I have to go save our pet cat..."

      "It will only take 2 minutes and you will be entered into our free prize draw..." *Click*

  18. richard 7
    Mushroom

    Oh Hell no!

    Least with the other contracts its not life threatening when they botch it up. Irritating as hell but not life threatening.

    Fire service always seems to be on the receiving end of all the bad ideas(tm)

  19. Annihilator
    Go

    Obligatory Simpsons

    Hello, and welcome to the Springfield Police Department Resc-u-Fone.  If you know the name of the felony being committed, press one.  To choose from a list of felonies, press two.  If you are being murdered or calling from a rotary phone, please stay on the line.

    You have selected regicide.  If you know the name of the king or queen being murdered, press one...

  20. annodomini2

    New number

    0999, calls cost £42/sec and you are put on hold for 12minutes.

  21. IT Hack
    Facepalm

    So how long until the first cock up? How long until the cost overun's wipe out the so called 5 million savings? I could go on but it's a Monday and that in itself is depressing enough.

    Facepalm coz well...there is no gun to the head icon.

  22. squilookle
    Stop

    I do not approve of this.

    But if they use Billy Joel for the hold music, it will go a small way toward making up for it.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. LateNightLarry
        Pint

        Re: I do not approve of this.

        The ONLY appropriate hold music is Billy Joel's 'We Didn't Start the Fire'.

        Beer since there's no wine glass, and it's wine o'clock somewhere...

  23. bobbles31

    Mmmm, of course the initial contract may save 5million I bet £1 against 10 that there will be "spec" changes that mean that capita will recoup the rest plus about 5 times what it costs now.

    Civil servant 1 : Ok budget time, how many fires did we dealt with in the last financial quarter?

    Civil servant 2 : erm, we don't know. I will ask capita for a report.

    ---------

    Civil servant 2 : we need to know how many fires we dealt with in the last financial quarter.

    Capita sales demon : bwuhahahaha!

    The problem with outsourcing is that a lot of senior managers underestimate just how flexible their actual workforce is and tht just scripting out the simple bit that they think their workforce do rarely equates to what they actually do.

  24. Lockwood

    I don't understand

    This will save money...

    They are transferring the staff.

    Bob is getting £X/hour from LFB for the job.

    Bob is getting moved to Capita, presumably under similar pay (a drastic pay cut would lead to much employment law deabte)

    LFB have to pay Capita for the service provided.

    Due to this extra tier, LFB would need to pay more, since they are indirectly paying Bob £Y/hour, and Capita are needing to make some markup on this as well.

    I can't understand how this saves money.

    1. Aldous
      Mushroom

      Re: I don't understand

      not to mention Bob is probably classed as a public servant so gets a nice pension/strong union backing. then is transferred to capita (i'd imagine ditching the council "perks" is where the money is saved) and after a year or two fired for some made up reason so they can employ one of their existing minimum wage drones in his place

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    cost saving?

    IMHO....Outsourcing in general cuts PAYE / NI tax income for the gov as the workers are abroad and pay their gov taxes, or are on considerably lower salary rate in the UK. And thus, less money coming into the exchequer means we all have to pay more in higher taxes to cover the losses.

    Now, if capita are also the same people that supply the security for jobcenters then they will have 3 x the operators for the phones as the job centers I have been working in recently had at least 7 security prowling around the office all looking bored.

  26. El_Fev
    WTF?

    What I cant Understand...

    Is how come runnning it inhouse is so much more expensive than outsourcing it when you will be using the same staff? How exactly are they saving the moeny and why cant the LFB just copy what they do and implement it themselves?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What I cant Understand...

      It works because the management are deliberately awkward to the existing staff to make them leave soon. They are then replaced with cheaper personnel.

      I've seen that happen more than once. Actually, with Perot Systems, in the very first meeting with management they came out and said (quote): "We don't like contractors," and they planned to get rid of the existing team as soon as possible. They were bussing their own people from Nottingham to Berkshire to work for the week, then bussing them back to their families for the weekend.

      That was fine. With no job prospects, my rates rose by £20/hour that day. :D

      Permies are less lucky.

  27. Dominic Connor, Quant Headhunter

    Average terrorism

    I'm trying to think of a worse idea than letting Capita run a life-critical system and the only thing I can think of is letting them run two...

    Even the most "successful" terrorist groups have only killed about 50 people in a single day, when, not if the systems of the LFB stop working from an "unexpected" event, we will see casualties in that order.

    But of course it isn't "unexpected", is it....

    Doesn't anyone else notice that government IT suppliers are rarely chosen by companies who have a free choice ?

    1. Vic

      Re: Average terrorism

      > Even the most "successful" terrorist groups have only killed

      Perhaps that's the answer.

      We need to convince Al-Qaeda to outsource their terrorism to Crapita. Within 5 years, they'll be too skint to try anytihng new, and the atrocity rate will have dropped to something negligible...

      Vic.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh goody

    I feel safer already.

    But that's because I live 50 miles away from London.

  29. Pete ThSplendiferous

    WE'RE ALL GOING TO BURN!!!!

    Nuf sed!

  30. Gordon 10
    Go

    OMG

    I think Im going to attempt defend LFB and Crapita.

    Outsourcing *can* work. Here's my hypothetical scenario how it can happen.

    1. Service and employees outsourced. Employee's under TUPE so little saving made there.

    2. Service reviewed for unnecessary bureaucracy that was not written into outsourcing contract. Being public sector there is probably some. (Hey there is in private sector too)

    3. Rebuild service without bureaucracy - save money.

    Half a million quid a year in waste in current LFB procedures I can see that. ITs just over 10%.

    Chances of this being actually what happens 0% (I did say attempt)

    1. Vic

      Re: OMG

      > Outsourcing *can* work

      ...Yet there seem to be far fewer instances of it working than there are instances of it failing spectacularly...

      > unnecessary bureaucracy that was not written into outsourcing contract.

      One man's " unnecessary bureaucracy" is another's "traceability" and another's "flexibility".

      The days of having vast amounts of fat to be trimmed are long gone. These days, attempts to do that usually imply that management haven't understood what the workforce is actually doing. They make a small short-term saving, then substantials parts of the business collapse because what was trimmed wasn't actually nugatory after all.

      > ITs just over 10%.

      Half a million quid a year is actually somewhat less than 6% of the £9M/year cost. That seems like a rather small return for such an enormous risk.

      Vic.

  31. Triggerfish

    Caller: Help my house is on fire.

    Somewhere in Lahore: Ok before we continue I'd like to tell you about the special offers our company is offering.......

    Caller: Help my house is on fire.

    Somewhere in Lahore: Ok have you tried turning it off and on again.

    Caller: What?

    Somewhere in Lahore: I'm sorry we cover more than one emergency/ support line, now what was the problem again.

    Caller: Help my house is on fire.

    Somewhere in Lahore: Welcome to the new emergancy services line, for efficiency we have automated our system to save time.

    Press 1 For ambulance

    Press 2 For fire

    Press...

    2

    Somewhere in Lahore: Thankyou you have chosen fire.

    Press 1 If it is your own fire

    Press 2 if its someone elses fire

    2

    Press 1 if you think would like to enter the address via our automated system

    Press 2 if you think the situation is urgent

    2

    Somewhere in Lahore:Please enter the address into our automated system, please speak clearly.....

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Hang on!

    "...the contract will allow the service to focus on its core business of putting out fires and saving lives"

    I thought the function of correctly dispatching the required equipment/bods to the right location in a timely fashion was fundamental to the aim of putting out fires? It is a part of the core business and consequently should not under any circumstances be contracted out.

    It's a bloody joke.

  33. TeeCee Gold badge
    Facepalm

    To report a fire.....

    .....call 999, or you can contact us via Twitter.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I overheard a Crapita manager explaining their recruitment policy.

    "We prefer to employ people who have been out of work for years, desperate people are more likely to do anything you tell them."

    So good luck London, you're going to need it.

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Consultancies

    According to the London fire brigade, the contract will allow the service to focus on its core business of putting out fires and saving lives.

    Every manager that believes that is a moron.

    IT isn't something that gives you manufacturing scale or can be easily slotted in and out like the supplier of paperclips or company cars. Software development doesn't scale much beyond a dozen people.

    It's like the arteries of a modern organisation. Get it wrong and little by little, you'll slow up the organisation.

    That also means changing it as your organisation changes. And once you have a separate company, it all has to be done through a formal process because of the contract, and frequently, these guys will shaft you. But worst of all, they won't innovate beyond the contract in a way that saves the company money.

    I was once working in a company and spotted that they were manually transcribing a load of data from one system to another. I suggested they gave me the file and I take a look. Within 3 days, we had an automated system lashed together and the staff doing the transcription were doing something more useful and less boring. You'll NEVER get that with consultancies. The "client contacts" are nothing but oily, dishonest salesmen and the staff are well hidden behind them.

    It staggers me that despite just how much we do with IT in companies (almost nothing is done on paper now), blind ignorance of IT is acceptable, and the way people cover up for their ignorance is to hire in the consultants. My own experience with them is that other than a few that have specific domain knowledge, they are total shysters that I would not let onto any of my sites if I was in charge.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Consultancies

      I'll see your a consultancy and raise you a bank!

      I've been at a *bank* where they said they weren't in the IT business, they were in banking.

      Which is rather like a logistics company saying that they are about fruit and veg location management, not lorries.

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Burghers, buy buckets!

    see title

  37. Anonymous Coward
    Devil

    Privatized emergency dispatching?

    How long until....

    A) "If you would like to participate in a brief survey after your emergency, please press 2"

    B) "Now that emergency services are on the way, would you like to talk about some of the exciting insurance offerings from our partners?"

    C) "We at Capita would like to thank you for your time! We know that you have a choice of options for summoning an ambulance for your dying loved one, and we appreciate your business!"

    D) (Obvious Indian accent) " Good evening! (its morning where you are) This Nigel from Bristol! Please to tell me what your crisis is and we send the fire truck right away! Before that, please tell me what County you are calling from and how far you from Buckingham Palace!?!"

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Privatized emergency dispatching?

      @D) Hello my name is Bob (with a worse stammer than Rowan Atkinson!) did you watch the Manchester United game earlier? Isn't David Beckham a fantastic fast bowler! (Note: DB had probably left MU at this point, although shows how much attention I pay to football!)

      ROFLMFAO!

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why are they writing a new system?

    The software on the ICCS was rock solid. There was a competing system that also worked.

  39. Intractable Potsherd
    Unhappy

    This is a terrible idea

    How could anyone think otherwise?

  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Crapita

    Some time ago Crapita, in their role as outsourced administrator of TV Licensing, decided they would like to persuade me to pay my TV licence by direct debit.

    I was disappointed at how long it took me to persuade their call centre supervisor that 10 cold calls in 7 days was actually somewhat excessive.

  41. Alan Brown Silver badge
    Devil

    It could be worse....

    They could have outsourced the call centres to Carlisle.

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