back to article Microsoft partners seriously underwhelmed by Windows 8.1

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer promised a flood of touch-enabled devices to fill the market as he previewed Windows 8.1, but is the technology channel raring to snap them up? Not really, it seems. Redmond's very own bald eagle last night said the "rapid release" upgrade - which comes with a revolutionary Start button - will blend …

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  1. Nigel 11

    Windows 7?

    Microsoft could let manufacturers pre-load Windows 7, and let retail customers choose between 7 and 8 on the same hardware at the same price. (Yes, I know one can buy systems loaded with Windows 7 that come with a Windows 8 "upgrade" disk - but they cost more). That Microsoft won't let the market decide, suggests Microsoft is now running on ego, not economics.

    1. The Man Himself Silver badge

      Re: Windows 7?

      They could, but I suspect that a very small percentage of them would choose to move to Win8, thus preventing Microsoft from getting a Win 8 sale....which, ultimately, is what they're looking for

      Much as I would love to wind Eadon up (where is he these days BTW?) and say I like Microsoft (which generally I do) I don't follow them fanboi-style. They've done a lot to turn me away from their products over the last year or so....and when I saw the words "Steve Ballmer said..." I realise why

      A company running on ego? Maybe, but I suspect there's some BS in the fuel tank as well.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        'Much as I would love to wind Eadon up (where is he these days BTW?)'

        Eadon got handed his hat about a week ago. All of his past posts have been purged too. I doubt he can stay away though. He's probably working on another Phoenix like Pseudonym as we speak....

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 'Much as I would love to wind Eadon up (where is he these days BTW?)'

          > Eadon got handed his hat about a week ago. All of his past posts have been purged too.

          While I often don't agree with his hyperbolic posts that seems just wrong.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 'Much as I would love to wind Eadon up (where is he these days BTW?)'

            "hyperbolic" wasn't the right word, was it?!

            1. Anonymous IV
              Happy

              Re: 'Much as I would love to wind Eadon up (where is he these days BTW?)'

              No, the required word was "hyperbollocks"...

            2. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

              Re: 'Much as I would love to wind Eadon up (where is he these days BTW?)'

              "hyperbolic" wasn't the right word, was it?!

              Oh, I don't know - his posts could be pretty eccentric. Sure, sometimes he could be elliptical, or circular in his reasoning, but he went all the way into hyperbolic territory often enough.

              Mine's the one with the conic sections.

              (And, yeah, I know I'm replying to a week-old post and no one will ever read this. Look on my posts, ye mighty, and despair.)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows 7?

      Microsoft prefer the bully-boy way. Force adoption of their new OS, rather than what consumers want.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Windows 7?

        Time for the Henry Ford quote again: "If I made what my customers wanted, I'd be making faster horses."

        1. cyborg
          FAIL

          Re: Windows 7?

          I'm sorry but Windows 8 to Windows 7 is not as a car is to a horse. You fail the IQ test.

          1. The Man Himself Silver badge

            Re: Windows 7?

            Time for the Henry Ford quote again: "If I made what my customers wanted, I'd be making faster horses."

            so MS gave their customers an asthmatic donkey...with a limp

          2. Simon Harris
            Coat

            Re: Windows 7?

            "I'm sorry but Windows 8 to Windows 7 is not as a car is to a horse. You fail the IQ test."

            More like a My Little Pony to a Lipizzaner Stallion.

          3. Frogmelon

            Re: Windows 7?

            Most horse and carts (and donkeys) out on the market are currently controlled by reins. The user sits on the cart and uses reins for direct control.

            Microsoft's problem is that it is trying to force users to use the new paradigm where that the rider is located in the cart trying to control the horse by stroking the horse's touch sensitive backside.

            It just doesn't work very well in horses and carts where the control is still very much in the reins model.

            Perhaps adding the new "kinect for horses" to the horse will make the butt-stroking interface actually fun and less painful to use.

        2. Chemist

          Re: Windows 7?

          "Time for the Henry Ford quote again: "If I made what my customers wanted, I'd be making faster horses.""

          Difference is that HIS customers bought the product

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Windows 7?

            "If I made what my customers wanted, I'd be making faster horses.""

            Instead he makes a car but only 2% of them have wheels

            And the only way to buy a horse is to buy a wheel-less car and then trade it in

        3. Tom 35
          FAIL

          Re: Windows 7?

          That quote is as crap as not-Metro.

          It doesn't sound like Ford, looking into it people seem to agree "We have no evidence that Ford ever said those words."

          It first appears in marketing crap around 2002.

          1. Grikath

            Re: Windows 7?

            Dunno about that Ford quote being genuine, but I remember the tale of Ford stating: "They can order any colour of car, as long as it's black."

            Which in a sense represents Microsofts' attitude to all things Win8 better IMO. From what I've read and experienced the OS has been seriously improved under the hood. It's just that the internal Fashionistas insisted that the touch interface was also implemented for the desktop, which was a patently stupid idea then, and still hasn't been fixed in this sort-of-backpedalling-by-reintroducing-the "Start"-button.

            1. MrDamage Silver badge

              Re: Windows 7?

              And thats exactly what it is, a tale. There is no evidence Ford actually said these words either.

          2. spiny norman

            Re: Windows 7?

            >>It doesn't sound like Ford, looking into it people seem to agree "We have no evidence that Ford ever said those words."

            He should have said it, though. Unlike some of the things he did say, it doesn't make him sound like a jerk.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Windows 7?

            > It doesn't sound like Ford, looking into it people seem to agree "We have no evidence that Ford ever said those words."

            “Misquoting is the bane of the Internet.” – Winston Churchill

        4. Paul Shirley

          Re: Windows 7?

          If only Microsoft didn't keep telling us it's listening to customers (and even remote monitoring them) to give them what they want... and apparently what they wanted was a Fisher Price drag along cart, in bright shiny colours and reduced functionality so they could skive off work better ;)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      'Let retail customers choose between 7 and 8 on the same hardware at the same price'

      Nice idea.... But MS has never been about empowering the consumer with choice. Instead they've always preferred the omnipotent dictator route i.e.: 'You'll take what you're given and be grateful'...

      1. Tom 13

        Re: But MS has never been about empowering the consumer with choice

        Not entirely true. There was a time when MS gave users and developers a great deal of choice.* But it was at the dawn of computing time. And their actions since then have pretty much blotted it out for anyone in the market today.

        *Yes, they did pick on certain vendors like Lotus, but they couldn't pick on everybody because they needed those other developers to fill out the market.

        1. ben_myers
          Linux

          Re: But MS has never been about empowering the consumer with choice

          And just when was that time in the far distant past when Microsoft gave users and developers a great deal of choice. Damned if I can remember when, and I was a participant in the original Windows 1.03 developer's conference. That goes way back, nearly 3 decades. Back then, and in various business dealings with Microsoft since, the expressed attitude is my (Microsoft's) way or the highway. Never room for negotiation. Take it or leave it. I'm sure I'm not alone, either, so there is a huge amount of pent-up ill will against Microsoft. Windows 8 (or 8.1) is the best reason ever for all of us to unleash that ill will.

          Windows 7 is OK, though. So is XP.

    4. MikeHuk
      FAIL

      Re: Windows 7?

      Microsoft had a winner with Win 7, if only they could produce an updated and improved Win 7 without Metro(Modern) and emphasis on mouse/keyboard rather than touch they could have had another winner. Win 8.1 is a lame attempt to improve a misconceived mess.

      1. Goat Jam
        Windows

        Re: Windows 7?

        "Microsoft had a winner with Win 7"

        Microsofts problem is more fundamental than whether Windows 8 is better or worse than 7.

        Their entire business model is being threatened. The problem they have is threefold.

        Firstly, when MS first arrived there were about 5 billion people on the planet and virtually none of them had computers. The arrival of the apple 2 and then the IBM PC ushered in a 20 year sales boom as manufacturers rushed to provide computers to a good proportion of those 5 billiion people.

        During this same period, we had an incredibly rapid PC hardware/software upgrade cycle. Things were moving so fast for most of that time that the PC you bought last year was already obsolete before the warranty had expired. Advances in both OS and hardware drove people to buy newer faster PC's on an annual basis (or even less). This was doubly true for PC gaming which was an especially lucrative segment of the market back in the day. Gamers would spend vast sums on ever more powerful rigs to run the latest games which always seemed to need vastly more powerful hardware with each release. And while all this was happening more and more first time buyers were also joining this upgrade treadmill. They were halcyon days for PC makers that will never be seen again.

        The third factors is, that during the entire time that this PC buying frenzy was in progress, Microsoft was there, charging the "Microsoft Tax" on every one of the PC's sold. And with effectively, no competition to contend with. They could dictate to the market and dictate they did, with gusto.

        These three factors combined led to MS becoming the massive, industry dominating juggernaut that it was until a few years ago and a lot of people made a lot of money on that monopoly joyride.

        But being a monopoly also has its downsides. Complacency, inefficency and arrogance come to dominate the corporate culture of all monopolies and Microsoft was not immune.

        In 2013 most people who can afford a computer already have one, and those that can't have access to older, second hand options, or bypass the PC altogether. The goldrush of first time buyers in the PC market is over. It's all about replacements these days.

        Even when replacing PC's, that only happens when a PC is worn out these days. The Core2 Duo with 2GB of RAM I purchased in 2006 is still perfectly acceptable for most non gaming purposes even now. Speaking of games, that part of the PC market is now a shadow of its former self, having been pretty much destroyed, ironically, by Microsofts own XBox console along with those from Nintendo and Sony.

        The growth in computing these days, of course, is mobile. Here again. Microsoft are a victim of their own monopoly induced arrogance and complacency. For years they and their partners slopped out the uninspired and comparitvely user hostile Windows Mobile smartphone platform and for years that market languished in a niche, with the only people showing any interest being large corporate users who used them for boring corporate things while the consumer market remained resolutely attached to Ericsonn & Nokia feature phones.

        Microsoft were prepared to leave things like this because, hey, it's not like anybody else is making money out of mobile computing are they? Who cares as long as we are still raking it in with Windows / Office sales right?

        That was a big mistake. First Blackberry, then apple and Android would introduce to consumers the option of mobile computing that didn't suck, and was not built around a drab, corporate os with a user interface deriverd from a desktop OS. All of a sudden people were buying thousands of smart phones, and then tablets, and Microsoft were left watching from the sidelines.

        Now we have reached the point that your typical household, who 5 years ago could be expected to have 2,3 or even 4 PC's, all loaded with MS software are now happy to reduce that down to a single PC and a fleet of phones and tablets, and none of them sporting Microsoft software.

        This is a disaster for Microsoft. Not only is the PC buying rush well and truly over, the replacement treadmill has slowed to a crawl and even worse, when people do decide to replace a PC, they are just as likely to replace it with a non Microsoft mobile device instead.

        This is why Microsoft NEEDS Windows 8 to succeed and simply saying that Windows 7 is good and Microsoft should continue along those lines is to completely misunderstand the true nature of the situation that Microsoft has found itself in.

        Not that Windows 8 is the answer of course. Microsoft are suffering the consequences of their own success. I think they should consider the option of downsizing their business and expectations and focus on providing corporate and enterprise products into that market and cede the consumer market to those more able to succeed in it.

        Golly I didn't expect to write that much much when I started this post.

        1. Michael Habel

          Re: Windows 7?

          Alotta food for thought their...

          But, its still not a justification for Metro. Nothing can ever be.

          Its to this kind of thinking that Ballmer NEEDS TO GO!!

        2. User4574
          Windows

          Re: Windows 7?

          "This was doubly true for PC gaming which was an especially lucrative segment of the market back in the day. Gamers would spend vast sums on ever more powerful rigs to run the latest games which always seemed to need vastly more powerful hardware with each release. And while all this was happening more and more first time buyers were also joining this upgrade treadmill. They were halcyon days for PC makers that will never be seen again."

          I believe this is what really drove the evolution in the PC market, your average corporate-targeted desktop could expect a 5-7 year lifespan before being replaced and with PCs being rather expensive in the Windows 95-98 days, I would expect average home users to hang onto theirs for about the same amount of time.

          "In 2013 most people who can afford a computer already have one, and those that can't have access to older, second hand options, or bypass the PC altogether. The goldrush of first time buyers in the PC market is over. It's all about replacements these days."

          In the 90s PCs were expensive and for those that could afford one there was "the family computer", internet access was (at least outside the US) expensive and slow pay-per-minute dial-up, forget about mobile.

          In the early 00s PC prices dropped and laptops started becoming more affordable to the consumer, as was faster internet access and WiFi. Now it became much more convenient to have a smaller and portable laptop that didn't need to be tethered to the nearest telephone socket.

          Mobile data services were still expensive, smartphones were geared to the corporate market (Symbian, Blackberry) and consumers by and large found them fiddly and complicated (power users are in a minority), in 2007 Apple launches the iPhone and in spite of the critics and cries from the power-user community about it's lack of features (some still absent) it was a huge hit with consumers.

          Now where people would have to wait until they got home to update their Social Networks, look something up online, check their bank balance etc, suddenly they could have the internet in their pocket literally at their fingertips.

          Is it really any surprise that the PC market is in decline and more to the point, is anyone really surprised given the direction things have been going up to this point?

          "...For years they and their partners slopped out the uninspired and comparitvely [consumer] hostile Windows Mobile smartphone platform... with the only people showing any interest being large corporate [and power] users..."

          And personally, I preferred a WinMo 6 device over the iPhone; I liked being able to chop and change things under the hood.

          "Now we have reached the point that your typical household, who 5 years ago could be expected to have 2,3 or even 4 [computers], all loaded with MS software are now happy to reduce that down to a single PC and a fleet of phones and tablets, and none of them sporting Microsoft software."

          And Apple saw this and acted on it aggressively leaving everyone else to play catch-up.

          "Microsoft are suffering the consequences of their own success. I think they should consider the option of downsizing their business and expectations and focus on providing corporate and enterprise products into that market and cede the consumer market to those more able to succeed in it."

          Microsoft don't need to cede the consumer market, there will always be a place for the Windows PC both for die-hard gamers, power users and even Mr Average who just wants to get some serious work done.

    5. AidanCheddar
      Windows

      Re: Windows 7?

      Microsoft would have to break their backs before even considering adding any ounce of choice between the newer and older systems at the purchase level.

  2. breakfast Silver badge

    Windows 8? More like Windows Nein

    "Businesses are buying Win8 machines but downgrading it to Windows 7" - I'm fairly sure this counts as an upgrade.

    1. ben_myers
      Pint

      Re: Windows 8? More like Windows Nein

      Yep. I bought four Lenovo i7 T430s for a client recently, then tricked them out with big SSDs and more memory. All came with Windows 7 pre-installed and a set of Windows 8 recovery DVDs, now on my shelf as a souvenir. I'm sure Micro$oft counted these as four Windows 8 sales.

      I'll bet that the US National Security Agency can tell us how many Windows 8 computers are actually being used.

      Well, there's always ClassicShell if you somehow unwittingly get stuck with a Windows 8 computer... Ben Myers

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Steve

    It's all ball(mer)shite

  4. JDX Gold badge

    On the plus side...

    It took years for them to replace Vista with W7, only a few months for 8.1. If there's going to be an 8.2, that might be pretty good!

    1. Rogue Jedi

      Re: On the plus side...

      bad analagy, in vista terms this is service pack 1.

      vista was version number 6

      7 is version number 6.1

      8 is version number 6.2

      8.1 is effectivly 6.2.1

      1. Tom 13

        Re: 8.1 is effectivly 6.2.1

        Not sure I'd even go that far. Maybe 6.2.0.1-a

    2. AidanCheddar

      Re: On the plus side...

      Unfortunately, 7 wasn't a service pack.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: On the plus side...

        "Unfortunately, 7 wasn't a service pack."

        Unfortunately it was. And it showed MS that they could charge for fixing botched products that they'd already been paid for. Post 8.1, there's clear indications that MS hope to charge for future service packs. Given the lengthy analyses posted above, you can see how this works - MS are simply hoping to extract the last bit of fat from their cash cow.

  5. Yet Another Commentard

    The problem...

    Is the chair-thrower in chief. He has to go. Over the last few years he's called nearly every shot wrongly:

    -Windows 8 to be touch centric when 2% of users can take advantage of it

    -The whole touch-based future on desktop, based upon one guy seeing people touching screens at a conference - really?

    - Windows 8 leverage to force people to get used to Windows Phone, and then buy that - for that to work people have to buy Windows 8 in the first place

    - Windows Phone - too little too late

    - X-Box One, and all the issues around that launch

    -Office 365 "software as a service" rather than "buy it use it forever"

    - Interface redesigns on all the software, users don't want them or need them

    I am struggling to find a good decision he's made, but I don't deal with enterprise cloudy stuff so there maybe something there.

    He can say "oh it was Sinovski" (sp?) but he, Ballmer, is the boss. He is the man in charge, he is responsible for every decision.

    What amazes me most is that on each failed decision the Internet At Large was busy yelling "this is the wrong way to do it. We hate it. We won't buy it." but he ignored it every time.

    He saw the outcry against EA over "always on", against Adobe for the Software as a Service model

    He must have heard the feedback on the W8 previews saying it's too jarring, too different, and nobody uses touch on the desktop where most of your sales will be.

    Surely he was aware that when the iPhone came out he needed to match it and quickly. Even if not at launch then a couple of months later. Instead he laughed at it and tried to keep with WinCE. Windows Phone is too little too late, sure it's a good system by most accounts, but it is far too late to market because he called the key decision wrongly.

    He failed to grasp the tablet idea, even though MS had tablet type things for years.

    Instead he has it in his head that by making all things Windows people will buy all things Windows. No, there has to be a compelling reason to do that.

    What is his strategy to deal with BYOD? He can't rely on the old model ("nobody ever got sacked for buying MS/IBM") in that space, he has to make a case for MS software/hardware to stand on its own.

    MS' board/stockholders have to bite the bullet, and sack Ballmer sooner rather than later, and put in his place someone who can read the future rather than believing they can just bully customers to buy his stuff because they did last time.

    That would send a clear "we are listening" to MS' partners. Adding a start button FFS, it's barely a start.

    1. The Man Himself Silver badge

      Re: The problem...

      I agree with it being a good idea to replace the Monkey-Dancer-In-Chief, but who is the natural replacement? So much of the good, long-serving talent from within MS has jumped ship during Ballmer's reign.

      From what I've heard/read from him, I would like to have seen Nathan Myhrvold at the helm, but I can't see that happening now

      1. Yet Another Commentard

        Re: The problem...

        TMH - this is the problem, I cannot see a natural successor. Gabe Newall, possibly, but still to MS. I would be inclined to look outside MS and get some fresh thinking unencumbered by the ghosts of MS past, but my shortlist is so short as to be empty.

        Apple has the same issue, its just that at the moment Cook has had insufficient time to demonstrate it properly, but he is showing the same signs of keeping the status quo, exactly what Jobs didn't do.

        The same will happen to Google as and when Larry/Sergy step down too.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Nathan Myhrvold

        In tomorrow's news: "Nathan Myhrvold has just resigned to spend more time with his family."

      3. Tom 13

        Re: who is the natural replacement?

        There isn't one. They need a new idea and that requires new blood. Somebody who can think outside the box without destroying the box. And that means somebody from outside the company.

        If for no other reason than the fun factor of seeing what he'd do with a company that big and that employs so many incompetent programmers, I nominate Torvalds.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The problem...

        "I agree with it being a good idea to replace the Monkey-Dancer-In-Chief, but who is the natural replacement?"

        Why should he be replaced at all. Let that damn company go to hell this time. They destroyed all those other good systems (Amiga, Atari, RISC OS). Let THEM ROT for once!

        1. Faye Kane, homeless brain

          Re: The problem...

          ==--

          > Why should he be replaced at all. Let that damn company go to hell this time.

          I completely agree! I went from "dump Ballmer NOW" to "the best thing for the users is for Microsoft to have to eat shh it until it learns not to be arrogant." Let the incompetent, Peter-unprincipled, furniture aerodynamicist monkey dancer run MS into the ground and wallow in the mud for awhile.

          Only then do I want Gates to intervene and fire Ballmer.

          Only then will it be obvious to every exec in Redmond why MS failed.

          Only THEN will whoever replaces him not make the arrogance mistake.

          The biggest problem with Microsoft is not that they do what's best for them instead of what's best for the customers; the problem with Microsoft is that they think there's a difference.

          -- faye kane ♀ homeless brain

          sexiest astrophysicist you'll ever see naked

    2. Simon Harris
      Facepalm

      Re: The problem...

      "He failed to grasp the tablet idea, even though MS had tablet type things for years."

      I wish they'd done something with their Courier concept instead of trying to shoehorn the same interface onto everything.

    3. Tom 13

      Re: called nearly every shot wrongly

      Truth be told, the same is true of Gates (Bob, internet is a fad, etc). The difference is Gates got one right (partnered with IBM to release DOS) that left him off the hook for all the rest of them. And you'll note that I'm not saying DOS per se, but partnering with IBM on the initial sales.

    4. Belardi

      Re: The problem...

      I agree with most of what you are saying.  Adding a bit.

      - the touch UI aspect of win8 is flawed because of hidden buttons and functions with no visual clues. The start button was always there, but being a hidden pixel in a corner was plain stupid.  Making metro apps run on full screen was stupid.  Keep in mind a metro app for win8 isn't the same one as for winRT or wp8.  So developers have to makem3 versions to debug, etc.  also making win8 desktop ugly isn't cool.    MS is so stupid, they make IE10 for win7 using win8 skin!

      - the touch UI fails when MS promotes win8 keyboards with special HOT keys for basic functions.

      - I've liked the metro UI on wp7 back when it first came out, I ran a launcher on my android phone,MIT was great.  I was planning on buying a WP8 phone... And the metro launcher for the desktop seemed like a good idea to me since most people use a few apps at the same time.

      But after using win8 preview for 20 mins, I knew it was crap.  I and others warned MS the problems.  With MS stupidly, why would I trust them with anything else?    I got an android 4 type phone and love it.  I hate metro and windows 8 and been driven to LinuxMint... Which made far more sense than windows8.

      My family is going with playstation4 like many others.

      I think many of us have NO CONFIDENCE in Microsoft.  Everything has been a FAIL since 2012.  And we no longer need them.  Windows 8 has only hurt the PC far more than if it never came out

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Devil

        Re: The problem... @ Belardi

        "I think many of us have NO CONFIDENCE in Microsoft. Everything has been a FAIL since 2012. "

        I thought somebody earlier said you'd been handed your hat?

    5. hugh wanger

      Re: The problem...

      Your post is typical. Its sad to see El Reg comments descend to Slashdot and Engadget levels of immaturity.

      Worsened by the fact you got 25 of your little pals to uptick you.

      Why would MS sack Ballmer? MS have just had one of their most profitable quarters.

      BYOD is severely overhyped, in a way for the channel to flog many people VDi licenses who don't need it.

      One of the largest companies in the UK who sell gas just realised this and shelved BYOD as their primary play.

      365 versus on premise? Sure, pay once own forever. But you will keep paying over and over again or your storage, your support people, your upgrades. You clearly aren't anything more than probably a desktop analyst who knows diddly squat about how the world actually works.

      Anyway, run along home. Hack another ROM onto you Android phone, get cracking with todays Steam deal and leave the IT analysis to the grow ups.

      1. Faye Kane, homeless brain

        Re: The problem...

        ==--

        > Its sad to see El Reg comments descend to Slashdot and Engadget levels of immaturity.

        What's immature about this discussion? You must be a new hire over there in the Microsoft marketing department. Yes, "you're being childish" is on the list of talking points your boss gave you, but you're only supposed to use it when the anti-MS thread can credibly be called "childish".

        > Worsened by the fact you got 25 of your little pals to uptick you.

        It's up to 29. With NO downticks.

        That really should tell you something.

        "The users are all wrong!" is the Redmond mantra. A well-run company would examine each negative comment to find out why people don't like their product. They would actively SEEK criticism. But not Microsoft! Instead, we get this transparent thrashing:

        > run along home. Hack another ROM onto your Android phone, get cracking with today's Steam deal and leave the IT analysis to the grownups.

        Do you really think *anyone* says that besides poorly-trained marketing shills? Everyone here is an IT analyst. That's who this site is for. (All together now, fellows...)

        "AND WE ALL HATE WINDOWS 8!"

        You redmond people still don;t get it, do you? You can't bully, ridicule, arm-twist, threaten, force, and fool people to buy your bug-infested, WAY overpriced software anymore.

        If you want your faux-outraged propaganda to be taken seriously, you have to talk like REAL people talk. You can't come across as sputtering, red-faced furious at the inexplicable sentiment that Win8 isn't very well designed. Even people who like Win8 (if there are any) won't become aggressive and hostile and abusive when someone disagrees with them about an O/S interface. It makes you sound like a psychotic buffoon even though you're not psychotic.

        Son, you aren't in the marketing-majors' frat house anymore. My advice is to get a REAL job, like throwing burgers at the Redmond McDonald's. Because when the layoffs start in the fall, you new hires will be the first to be unceremoniously thrown overboard by Ballmer.

        If he doesn't give a dam about his customers, he certainly doesn't care about YOU.

        ♥,

        --faye kane ♀ girl brain

        sexiest astrophysicist you'll ever see naked

  6. The BigYin

    A suggestion to all those OEMs

    Lots of people would like those ARM units. Strip them of the OS, add some extra keys to the correct UEFI database (or just disable secure boot). Flog them naked.

    You won't get all your cash back, but you will stem your losses and you never know, you might just stimulate the wider IT market as they will not be free to innovate.

    1. The BigYin

      Re: A suggestion to all those OEMs

      ARG!

      [Y]ou might just stimulate the wider IT market as they will [now] be free to innovate.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A suggestion to all those OEMs

      And while they're at it, if they would be so kind and publish the technical documentation for the hardware too.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    How long before...

    We'll get the lame rhetoric again: "Our partners don't understand our vision and great leadership!"?

    A better question: How long before Ballmer will finally realize that the time of dictation is truly behind them?

    1. Mr Spock

      Re: How long before...

      Or, how long before Ballmer understands the meaning of the word 'partner'. (Hint: it's not synonymous with 'victim'.)

  8. Tom 35

    will blend "desktop and modern computing experiences"

    Will it blend? Ha Ha, maybe

    We don't want a "modern computing experience" we want a desktop computing experience. We don't like "not-metro", and all the app crap that comes with it. Stop trying to be Apple. I don't what a 3" phone interface on my computer (and I'm not much interested in that phone for that mater).

    "Modern" is not a name, it's a description that doesn't fit. It beats "the new iPad" on the stupid scale for a product name.

    Give us an option to turn it off (all of it, not another lame pretend fix), if it's so great no one will turn it off right?

    Maybe your partners can hit you with a clue-by-four, your not listing to us despite what you say.

    Some of the stuff they add in 8.1 might be of use some day, but adding a start button to replace one of the invisible spots and pretending that's all everyone wanted is just pissing people off.

    1. Nigel 11

      Re: will blend "desktop and modern computing experiences"

      Actually Apple gets desktop computing right - the UI on an iMac has nothing much wrong with it. So Microsoft obviously wasn't aping Apple, when it decided that the world really wanted a mobile phone interface on a 1920x1080 monitor (or two, or four).

      1. Manu T

        Re: will blend "desktop and modern computing experiences"

        "Actually Apple gets desktop computing right - the UI on an iMac has nothing much wrong with it. "

        Are you insane? Apple removed all the professional stuff from OSX to make it into a candy-OS. You NEVER have a choice in UI Apple chooses for you. You NEVER have a choice of apps. Apple dictates whether you get a new webbrowser or not! Fuck Apple! They are as worse as microsoft.

        The only OS I had ever fun with is RISC OS.

        1. Jess

          Re: will blend "desktop and modern computing experiences"

          I agree, I prefer Leopard to to Mountain Lion, fortunately that is what my G5 runs.

          I definitely prefer RISC OS though, and I'm hoping all the Pi related development of it will bring it back to where it can be my main OS again. (The biggest issue for me is the lack of a jabber client.)

  9. Rich 2 Silver badge
    Devil

    The OEMs sort-of deserve it

    I don't have a lot of sympathy with the PC OEMs. They have, for literally decades, leached off the Windows thing. None of them have made any effort to build anything other than a "Windows" box, with maybe a couiple of exceptions but even these were very much half-heated. They have all sucked-up to MS, and have been more than happy to pass-on the WIndows tax to consumers. I'm not going to get upset for them now that their golden egg seems to be cracking.

    As for paying 100 quid for the OS, I notice that Apple only charge £14 for an upgrade to the latest version of OS-X! Which one do YOU prefer?

    1. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

      I think you're being a little simplistic and harsh on the OEM's.

      The deal from the outset has been MS produce the OS and someone else produces the hardware for it to run on; this division of labour and relationship seems to have worked very well for 30 years. It is also the model used by open source - which seems to have largely adopted the "Windows" box hardware platform as it's primary platform.

      Over most of those 30 years the main emphasis has been on performance, which has been a competition between the software guys creating more sophisticated and useful programs and the hardware guys creating ever more performant hardware capable of running it plus some.

      For many OEM's the constant hardware update and the emphasis on performance meant that production runs tended to be short and 'non-essential' stuff being left out - hence why we've had so many beige boxes over the years and black was considered an innovation!

      I would be interested to know what other "box" you think the OEM's should of been building, given that the desktop market has been very brutal to non "Windows" boxes, with Apple only surviving due to the deal with Microsoft in 1997. Also no other major OS vendor seemed to be prepared to let third-parties build their boxes - which would rule out OEM versions of Apple, DEC, Sun, SGE and other workstations. Yes attempts were made by some to ship Linux boxes and we saw the speed with which MS acted. Todate the only successful none "Windows" boxes seem to be Apple's and those based on Android, but then Android boxes have't really targeted the PC market.

      1. Nigel 11

        Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

        I would be interested to know what other "box" you think the OEM's should of been building

        That's easy. On the desktop, an iMac-alike that runs Windows and Linux, priced at the usual industry margin rather than Apple's huge mark-ups. (Dell are actually selling something like this - for the first time in ages I was somewhat impressed by a bit of Dell hardware). On the lap-top, what we have but with higher-resolution screens (again, much like Apple hardware). 1360x768 isn't enough pixels on twelve-inch screens, let alone 17-inchers.

        Just don't import Apple's hardware (un)reliability!

        I also believe there should have been a lot of mileage in a Tablet with a passive docking station (stand plus bluetooth keyboard and mouse), where the interface switched from touch-optimised to desktop-optimised when you "docked" it. That's what Windows 8 might have been: competition for the iPad when un-docked, Windows 7 desktop when docked. That it isn't is Microsoft's fault.

      2. Robert E A Harvey

        Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

        >I would be interested to know what other "box" you think the OEM's should

        >of been building,

        They could have - and still could - offer exactly the same box with a working Linux installation. Nothing stopped them doing that.

        Except bullying by Microsoft

        1. Grikath

          Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

          Bullying from MS may have had something to do with it with the big OEMs, but I've been working for a smaller OEM in the late 90's-00's in the Netherlands, and we *desperately* wanted to offer Linux configurations alongside our usual MS line of installs. (Some of which was caused by the absolute horror that was the original Vista release, so at that point in time the linux versions had a fighting chance..)

          Guess what: It was next to impossible to set up a commercial-viable system. You'd either run into driver issues, hardware incompatibility issues, stability issues, crashed desktops, and other minor unconveniences, which would have taken up most of the time of our tech dept in finding hardware that *was* supported/stable, or would have swamped our customer support. So we ended up needing to build machines with either legacy parts, or more expensive bits and bobs, or simply accept that roughly half of the boxes would be returned because they would fail customer expectation (you plug it in, boot it up, and get to work..). Finding productivity/entertainment programs to go with the box proved to be an equal pain in the arse, since there was nothing open source out there that was remotely comparable to the quality and stability that MS customers were used to.

          And really, we've tried, but the reaction from the Linux "society" at that time ranged from lukewarm to outright hostile, and the one thing that struck me at the time was that the "scene" overall had its' head up its' arse because they simply refused to acknowledge that they would need to match actual production criteria to make a Linux/open source ecosystem viable for anything other than bespoke limited production runs.

          We ended up solving the problem by buying up a wad of WinXP licenses and ignoring Vista altogether for the consumer boxes. By the time Red Hat came out, the issue was moot again, because most consumers and companies looking to upgrade had already bought their boxes and "back in the saddle" on the windows platform, and the Linux "movement had lost another round, simply by missing an opportunity to pounce when the crack in the armour was there.

          MS may "bully", but there's an inbuilt elitism in the Linux community that is just as bad, and has caused quite a few "Ballmeresque" episodes over the years.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

          "They could have - and still could - offer exactly the same box with a working Linux installation. Nothing stopped them doing that."

          We DO!

          "Except bullying by Microsoft"

          ...or fucking users who "need" MS Office and aren't content with an alternative Office suite!

          You're talking shit out of your arse!

    2. Rogue Jedi

      Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

      I agree with most of what you are saying.

      In last paragraph were yeo mentinon that apple charges £15 for an OS upgrade, Apple does not sell the OS to put on other hardware, they make it to go on hardware they sell, you must have Apple hardware to take advantage of the £15upgrade. no OEM can put OSX or iOS on their hardware

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

      Can't disagree. They failed to innovate. In the NT/2000/XP good years this wasn't a problem, but when failed releases arrived it was punishing. With Vista, they played their part in the sticker conspiracy, knowing that it wasn't ready for the masses.... I have absolutely no sympathy for them....

    4. 080
      Linux

      Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

      And Mint charges bugger all.

    5. AidanCheddar
      Meh

      Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

      You do realize OEMs are bound by a contract and must pay a fee to even install Windows? if their contract says Windows 8 tablets, they do Windows 8 tablets. You're assuming they have greater say on the matter.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The OEMs sort-of deserve it

      "I don't have a lot of sympathy with the PC OEMs. They have, for literally decades, leached off the Windows thing"

      WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU, MORON!

      I used to sell RISC OS machines before those bloody Americans destroyed that market (and my source of income). I loved those machines. Fun, fast and of incredible build quality. I therefore had no choice then to direct my efforts to the only platform available. At least with PC's I could build the machines that adhered to my quality of standards.

      "None of them have made any effort to build anything other than a "Windows" box,"

      Yes WE HAVE. A professional PC builder builds far better PC's then HP, Dell and others. Most of us build PC's ourselves. We are NOT just "box-shifters"! How did e.g. Alienware started before being bought by Dell?

      "They have all sucked-up to MS, and have been more than happy to pass-on the WIndows tax to consumers."

      No we didn't! You obviously have no idea of how it all came to this. In fact YOU have yourself to blame for this!

      "I'm not going to get upset for them now that their golden egg seems to be cracking."

      What golden egg? You consider a Windows PC a "golden Egg"? Fool! I'd rather go back to sell RISC OS machines then this crap. But fucking users like YOU who didn't bought them because "it had no Office" or "you have no games" or any other lame excuse to grab a cheap PC and download pirated games and apps. You caused this all upon yourself.

      For me, I couldn't care less whether that build-to-order PC ran Linux, Windows or even OSX. I'd still have work "supporting" users.

      "As for paying 100 quid for the OS, I notice that Apple only charge £14 for an upgrade to the latest version of OS-X! Which one do YOU prefer?"

      Oh Please. You can't run OSX on a non-Apple PC so the price is calculated in the Apple HW (which is considerably more expensive). Not to mention just a few "choosen" may sell them and their apps. So much for "free market".

      You fuckers should stop buying PC's from chainstores. And help the small PC shop around the corner whom builds his own PC's. With the components that the client wants. Instead of crappy chinese build shit sold by a US-company with a chain of stores in the UK.

      Should have bought Risc PC's back then, then you wouldn't be in this mess!

  10. 1Rafayal

    The problem isnt that Windows 8/8.1 isnt doing anything to revitalise the PC market.

    It is more like no desktop OS is able to light a fire under PC sales.

    Personally, I think people have moved on from the box on a desk in favour of tablets/phablets

    1. Wade Burchette

      Incorrect.

      Windows 7 computers are selling well. I help someone buy a HP Windows 7 laptop. She bought it over the phone. The HP salesman said over the phone that because demand was so high for this Windows 7 model, it would be 2 weeks before the laptop could ship.

      If the OEM would get some balls and put Windows 7 back on the shelf, I guarantee you they will go quickly. People want new computers; people don't want Windows 8.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Incorrect.

        Before Windows 8 even came on the scene PC shipments were declining quite heavily

        http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2011/06/20/gartner_cuts_uk_pc_forecast/

        1. Manu T

          "Before Windows 8 even came on the scene PC shipments were declining quite heavily"

          PC sales are NORMALIZING back to normal consumer levels of 1 (one) PC per household. Instead of the exaggerated 4-PC household of yesteryear.

    2. Paul Shirley

      Microsoft know the PC market is in terminal decline, it's why they think it's OK to fuck over the Windows desktop and power users with a dumbed down legacy mode and completely dumb preferred UI. Its the desperate marketing driven need to enter a growing tablet+mobile market overriding all other concerns.

      Microsoft is failing because they're shiny new consumer pandering OS isn't good enough to compete. They're damaging the existing PC product but gaining no benefit in the new target markets. When will Ballmer stop digging? Only when he's 6ft down in a wooden box is my bet.

      1. Nigel 11
        WTF?

        @Paul Shirley - desktop in terminal decline?!

        Terminal? Hardly.

        What's happening is that the desktop market is both saturated (in the West) and mature. People who need desktops (for business and for serious hobbies) have them already. Why buy a new one? 1. Because the old one has broken down. 2. Is there a two? Windows 8 is a new reason NOT to buy a new one if the old one still works. Ignoring that, desktop sales will go from one every 3-5 years to one every 6-10 years: down to 40% of the boom-time sales, then flat for the forseeable future. That's still a huge market.

        The winners from Microsoft's incompetence will be Apple and (maybe) Linux. Also I can't see Windows 8 making much of a dent in iPad and Android tablet sales.

        The tablet market will soon enough be mature and saturated. I suspect Tablets aren't replacing desktops, except for home data consumers who only ever had a desktop because it was all they could get at the time. Tablets are mostly supplementing desktops.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Stop this ridiculous anti-propaganda!

      "Davies told The Channel: "An OS launch no longer creates a wave of new purchases. Windows 8.1 may staunch the wound, correct past mistakes but it will not wipe out the impact of the economy or the fact that people want tablets and smartphones.""

      This Davies character is a retard!

      "The problems, according to the venerable analyst, can be traced back to the Surface "bombshell" that shocked Microsoft's OEM pals, who in turn didn't make enough touch devices."

      No it ISN'T!!!

      First of all. The market is NORMALIZING!

      The people with interest in PC's bought the machines they want. The last 10 years computers have been enforced and pushed upon people by everything and everybody. From schools to banks and civil service and governmental agencies. Some of these people with no interest in computers realized that all they actually need is a machine with a webbrowser. And today we have these small machines with just that.

      IMHO the market is NOT in decline. It's just normalizing upto normal levels. Desktop machines will not completely dissapear. Households will just have 1 PC and a lot of different (connected) computing devices instead of the 4 Windows PC-household of years gone by.

      So stop all that theatrical drama for god's sake!

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Even with Microsoft completely failing in the execution of Windows 8 I do feel they are sharing an unfair proportion of the blame for the slump in the PC market.

    The general consensus is that people didn't want what Windows 8 turned out to be but there is no consensus on what Windows 8 should have been that would have got the customers upgrading from Windows 7.

    Comments that say Microsoft should've allowed OEMs to install Windows 7 miss the point of the article and the blame heaped on Windows 8. OEMs were selling products with Windows 7 and they were seeing sales declining year on year and the expectation was that a new Windows OS would reverse that trend.

    The simple fact is that there is nothing Microsoft could have done to reverse the trend. Windows 7 was the existing Windows template taken to its furthest refinement. Yes you could tweak it but there wouldn't be any new features that would make it worthy of an upgrade, it would just be Windows 7.1.

    The simple fact is that the OEMs stick their head on the sand and pretended the market wasn't changing. Apple and Google knew the market was changing because they were the ones leading that change. Asus and Samsung saw the market was changing and diversified their portfolio and put backing behind tablets, AiOs, convertibles, docking stations, etc. Even Microsoft saw that the market was changing, that big box desktops favouring an OS monopoly was losing relevance and market dominance, hence a push to have its products work across multiple form factors and platforms.

    It wasn't Windows 7 that was causing a decline in PC sales and it wouldn't be Windows XYZ that would have caused an increase in PC sales. OEMs didn't move with the market, didn't innovate or bring fresh ideas and its them and them alone that should be shouldering the blame for ever decreasing sales.

    1. Grikath

      You're right in the fact that no version of windows ( or linux for that matter) could have revitalised the consumer PC market. The shift towards phones/tablets is as clear and logical as the shift from PC poxes to laptops in the household. It's simply a matter of technology progressing, decent wireless access at home, and no real need to be tethered to one place to check your emails/get your daily dose of T&A/play $game.

      There's no doubt MS knows this, and it's one of the reasons they pushed out win8. They *need* an OS that can cope with the new technology, and getting it to work over a wide range of devices must have been a serious headache. So win8 was a given, not as win7.1, but as a full version change.

      They dropped the ball(mer) however with Metro. Full well knowing there would be an upgrade cycle in the corporate sector they could have gone:

      "Look guys, we know you've been eyeing Win7 for your upgrade, but look at this Win8. Supports all the new stuff you like while more or less staying the same, so things will be where people expect it to be. But wait for it!! It also supports the new mobile touch devices through a dedicated UI that kicks in as soon as it's installed on [devicex]! Isn't that neat?!"

      Which is basically what man and dog has been telling them, and which they chose to ignore. For reasons which have preciously little to do with actual technology, but with "aesthetics" and Opinions. Which obviously from Win8.1 still has not been resolved.

  12. Miek
    Linux

    'But he warned, "It is a consumer-focused product and so far consumers haven't liked it. Businesses are buying Win8 machines but downgrading it to Windows 7," he said.' -- Lenovo are also shipping Windows 8 laptops with Windows 7 pre-installed (Win 8 is supplied as a DVD installer) . Oddly, Lenovo have recreated the Metrosexual interface for Windows 7, which we quickly removed.

  13. Tikimon
    FAIL

    Companies drunk on their own Kool-Aid

    Two main problems as I see it, which pervades ALL business these days. They don't try to build good products to fill needs and wait for the world the beat down their door. They dream up a Business Strategy they believe will make them rich, and develop products to fit their "vision." When the public reject that vision, they blame everyone but themselves for the stunning lack of uptake.

    Second, the assumption that everything must be "refreshed", even if it's working fine. I wish I could go back in time and terminate whomever came up with this asinine strategy! No better example can be found than Win 8. After the Vista debacle they won most folks back with Win 7... then threw it all out the door! Combo of their myopic, uninformed "vision" and radically changing a product that was working fine.

    I also blame databases, and business' crippling reliance on them. The "essay-answer" customer service feedback that might be useful is reduced to a few tick marks in database rows, stripping away any sense of what's working or what people think about it. "Rate your experience from 1-5" tells you NOTHING. So they know nothing useful about what we want, liked, or didn't like.

  14. peterrat

    Our household moved from desktops to laptops around 3 yrs ago, Win7. I have just recently replaced my (and wife's ) laptops that came with Win8, I was sceptical at first (until I was shown Win/D ) but after I loaded it with my usual applications and do Win/D after startup (for desktop mode) I use it just as I did with Win7.

    Am I missing something?

    1. JDX Gold badge

      You're missing the desire to find faults and make things hard for yourself so you can complain about it.

    2. Tom 35

      Am I missing something

      Any use at all for Metro?

      Your just using it as Win7 so why would you want to "upgrade"?

      If MS did what people asked and gave you a way to kill Metro would you miss it?

      1. The Lord Gord

        Re: Am I missing something

        Microsoft KNOW people find METRO useless on eh desktop, but they have their head in the sand and a broom so far up their corporate asses that they have no option but to keep their mouth shut and go into complete denial mode.

      2. peterrat

        Re: Am I missing something

        True I don't really use metro (in fact I can't stand it) , most of the "apps" are crap/amateurish. My 3yr old laptop suffered a screen failure so I thought I would use it as an excuse to get an up to date machine (hardware wise).

        The applications that I do use mostly seem to run faster/smoother.

        So, yea, looking forward to 8.1

    3. Roland6 Silver badge

      Re: Am I missing something?

      Yes! you are having to manually do a Win/D (I think you mean Win+D keyboard shortcut) after startup; whereas you should be able to configure this setting in the startup switches so that the machine auto boots into desktop mode.

      By using a combination of Classic Menu/Start8 (take your pick) and ModernMix, Desktop mode is the boot default and TIFKAM is now just an a windowed environment on the desktop...

    4. AidanCheddar

      Yeah, not having to hack what you could have already gotten out of Windows 7.

      1. P. Lee

        Its just the next version

        Corporates wouldn't upgrade again if it was the best UI ever - its just too expensive to do that process so soon after W7. It was never going to save the new computer market because it hasn't died, its just matured. MS doesn't want another XP - wildly successful to the point where people don't re-purchase, which is the reason for the "no license transfer between machines" bid. Without Apple's hardware model (which is now tying itself to Flash life-spans) it needs a way to piggyback revenue on someone-else's recurring sales.

        For my money, there are two issues:

        1) the mental context switch between desktop and metro is jarring. I want to run an additional app, but I don't go through a small widget in the corner to get to it, I press a button and all my existing work disappears and is replaced by other stuff, most of which is eye-catchingly moving but not what I want. I'm removed from my current work-flow.

        2) Its obviously designed for touchscreen. Whenever I see it on a desktop, I think, "that that's the wrong interface for this device." Its obviously wrong, even if you can live with it and its functionally usable, the fact that its obviously designed for something else makes it more irritating than it needs to be. Metro should have been an option on the taskbar. A bit of xml config for the desktop would have made it all a bit dynamic and workable.

  15. The Lord Gord

    Best Joke of 2013

    A man walks into a bar with a windows 8 PC.....

    My sides are so sore I needed surgery!!!

  16. Howard Hanek
    Mushroom

    Windows Omega?

    Mr. Ballmer states that the 'problem' is that there are just not enough fondleslabs. The fondleslab manufacturers whose warehouses are filling up with unsold fondleslabs question whether or not Mr. Ballmer secretly suffered some undiagnosed mental collapse a year or two ago and that there are just not enough similarly diagnosed mental patients in the market for a new fondleslab. I tend to agree with them.

  17. Robert E A Harvey

    8.1, eh?

    i had no idea people thought the problem was to the right of the decimal place.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    FAIL by Micro$oft's famous beach whale Ballmer

    Go back to sniffing crack you bloated basketball

  19. Jess

    If

    If they had given it a simple choice between Metro and a lean windows 2000 style interface, it would have been a winner. It would have worked well on most XP hardware.

    The problem with recent Microsoft OSes is they tend to take one step forwards and two steps back. The only real exceptions were windows NT to 2000 where it was about 3 steps forwards for every one back and Vista to 7 where it was pretty much all forwards, because it was the same thing, just fixed.

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