back to article 'Biggest bird ever': 21-foot ripsaw-beaked flying horror

Boffins have identified the fossil remnants of a vast creature that had a jagged-edged ripper beak, and appears to have had the largest wingspan of any bird ever. Artist's impression of world's largest flying bird, Pelagornis sandersi Artist's impression of world's largest flying bird, Pelagornis sandersi. Credit: Liz …

  1. Heironymous Coward

    Could it take off from water?? Otherwise, it would seem like a Darwinian dead-end. Then again, it is extinct...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Could it take off from water?? Otherwise, it would seem like a Darwinian dead-end. Then again, it is extinct..."

      In the long term, we're all Darwinian dead-ends.

      1. Stevie

        re: In the long term, we're all Darwinian dead-ends

        In those lengths of terms, who the fuck was Darwin?

    2. 7teven 4ect

      Gliding

      Another article pointed out that for each 1m drop, the bird could glide 22m

      Waves go up and down, the bird just has to sit on the water, wait for a 1m wave to lift it, then glide up to 22m to catch a fish on the surface, then wait for a wave to lift it for the next attack.

      Sat on a wave, the bird may have looked like a wave, almost invisible to fish.

      Just because it's big, doesn't mean it had to fly or glide large distances.

  2. D@v3

    take off

    I figure it spent a loooong time airborne, much like an albatross, and when on occasion it did need to take off, it would be able to throw itself off a nearby cliff face (probably the one it briefly landed on) spread it's wings, catch a draft and off it goes.

    I am, of course, no ornithologist.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Happy

      Re: take off

      I'm no orthinologist either. More of a wird-botcher...*

      But cliffs is what I'd assumed as well. It's not likely to be an evolutionary success to rely on a sufficient gust of wind being available for take-off, just as the local predator turns up for lunch. Although many sea-birds can lighten the load for emergency take-offs by vomiting their stomach contents all over their attacker.

      Perhaps symbiosis is the answer? Maybe there was an aircraft carrier dinosaur, on which these things could land? We just haven't found the fossil yet.

      Then again, they did die out "under mysterious circumstances". So maybe it was crap take-off abilities and natural selection. But my carriersaur theory is still in it with a chance! Perhaps the things just evolved away their catapults, and forgot to upgrade the birds at the same time?

      *With thanks to the late, great, Humphrey Lyttelton.

      1. Vic
        Joke

        Re: take off

        But my carriersaur theory is still in it with a chance! Perhaps the things just evolved away their catapults, and forgot to upgrade the birds at the same time?

        They were clearly expecting the VTOL-capable Pelagornis B to take over, but it wasn't ready in time...

        Vic.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: take off

        > Although many sea-birds can lighten the load for emergency take-offs by vomiting their stomach contents all over their attacker.

        Much like modern sailors.

      3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge
        Happy

        Re: take off

        "Then again, they did die out "under mysterious circumstances". So maybe it was crap take-off abilities and natural selection."

        On the other hand, the article states "The huge seabirds were found all over the world for tens of millions of years" which suggests that he people who know about this stuff believe these birds were around for waaaaay longer than human beings have been so far. :-)

    2. Queasy Rider

      Re: take off

      I don't think the bulk of their diet was found up on cliffs, so they still probably had to take off occasionally from the water. The only way I see around this is to only feed in waters around cliff bases, then somehow climb the cliff face till they are high enough to launch into a suitable updraft.

      1. Eddy Ito

        Re: take off

        I don't think you'd need cliffs to jump off as a shallow hill or sand dune was probably adequate. If it was an expert glider it wouldn't need much forward velocity to get aloft. Given an onshore breeze as the air over the sand heats and rises it may be a gently sloping beech was enough so the bird could literally stand tall and fall forward onto its wings with a day's soaring ahead of it.

        Given its size it probably wouldn't have much competition from its own kind so it may not have had to make long distance voyages over open ocean. It may have be enough to make a living in the littoral zone given it could likely cover the distance between Jacksonville, NC and Jacksonville, FL in a day. The added benefit besides a short swim to a gentle slope would be the increased probability of running into a potential mate and the downside obviously running into an adversary (assuming they were territorial).

        All in all, while it might have been the coolest thing since the iced mocha venti carmel caffe macchiato I'm kind of glad they are gone. Not because I'd be worried they'd swoop me away as I'm fairly certain I'd outweigh most if not all of them but I'd never hear the end of it should something happen to Mrs. Ito's kitteh. Besides, if they hadn't vanished a long time ago they would certainly have gone the way of the dodo because humans aren't kind to potentially tasty meals that can't out-breed us.

  3. Caaaptaaaain kick arse

    London bus comparison

    not found

    1. dotdavid

      Re: London bus comparison

      It would have flown much better than a London bus.

      1. Gazareth

        Re: London bus comparison

        But its take-off ability was much the same

  4. Scroticus Canis
    Trollface

    The BBC reckons it's the largest bird ever....

    Strangely similar article on the BBC site earlier today but their "science" hackette said this was the largest bird ever (maybe they have corrected such a glaring error by now). At least this version got the "largest wingspan" bit right. Doubtful if this was the heaviest bird to take to the air though.

    If bird bones are so "paper thin" (yes they are lighter in construction than some) why does a smack around the head with an ostrich femur hurt so much?

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Re: The BBC reckons it's the largest bird ever....

      Bones of flying birds are thin. Last time I looked at an ostrich it flew about as well as a brick. Tasty, however, very tasty

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Fungus Bob

      Re: The BBC reckons it's the largest bird ever....

      "If bird bones are so "paper thin" (yes they are lighter in construction than some) why does a smack around the head with an ostrich femur hurt so much?"

      'Cause your skull is thinner...

  5. Inventor of the Marmite Laser Silver badge

    Just imagine

    That thing shitting on your car. It'd go straight through.

    1. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge

      Re: Just imagine

      We once had a grey heron drop a load dead centre on a tea table outside. Only amusing well after the event. One of these Pelagornithids could take out an entire village fair with one salvo. One dreads to think what a flock might have been able to do.

      1. Andy E

        Re: Just imagine

        But the phraase "but this fossil was very well-reserved." implies it was shy and possibly too well mannered to crap on you.

      2. chivo243 Silver badge

        Re: Just imagine

        Just as bad as if pigs flew (insert Pink Floyd Joke) I’m glad it’s extinct, I’d get an awful sore neck from constantly looking up.

      3. Gary Bickford

        Re: Just imagine

        In ancient times there was a community known as the Goodnu's. As all communities did in these times the Goodnu's lived right on the river bank for trading, transportation and sustenance. Water was almighty and worshipped as a God. One day there was a tremendous hurricane far out in the ocean. It's ferocity blew a large flock of "Foo" birds way off course sending them inland many hundreds of miles and in the vicinity of the Goodnu's community. The Goodnu people had never seen a "Foo" bird and were quite curious as to it's sudden and obviously evil presence. The "Foo" bird, as we all know, is a very ugly, evil-looking bird. This caused the Goodnu people to become very uneasy believing they did something wrong to God and that this bird should be avoided. One day a "Foo" bird flew overhead and screeched: "Foo, Foo" and shit on a Goodnu's head. The man ran screaming into the river believing the Holy powers of the river would cleanse him of this evil turd and its consequences. As soon as the man washed this unholy turd from his ear canal he suddenly keeled over and died. The Goodnu's were now convinced of the "Foo" bird's evilness. The next day a woman was outside and heard: "Foo, Foo". Before she could react the "Foo" bird dropped a bomb landing a syrupy turd across her face. Shocked and panicked she ran into the river furiously washing her face of this sloppy stew. The village watched in horror as this woman also died once cleansed of the runny turd. The very next day a village wiseman heard those famous words: "Foo, Foo". He like others had witnessed the terrible deaths of two of his villages' people in the last two days. He too was struck right in the forehead by the "Foo" birds accurately guided turd missile. His first reaction was confusion and he sprinted towards the river. However, he stopped short and thought of his obvious demise should he cleanse the turd wafer from his forehead. He did not cleanse the poo pile from his forehead and lived. So the wiseman went to the other people of the village, gathered them around and stated to them: "There is an obvious lesson here my good people. The moral of this story is: 'If the Foo shits, wear it.'".

        - this version from http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbowman/birds/humor/foo_bird.html

  6. harmjschoonhoven

    fossilised giant bird

    picture or it didn't happen.

  7. Rogue Jedi

    Largest ever flying bird?

    why do we frequently hear of the largest ever or fastest ever, just because we know of nothing larger does not mean it does not has not and will never exist.

    I would much rather people use terminology like "largest discovered to date", "possibly the largest ever" or "fastest built to date" and not potentially look like an idiot in 6 months if a larger creature is discovered or a faster vehicle is created.

    e.g. many dinosaurs have been declared the largest ever, only to have a specimen from a larger species discovered a few years later.

    Is the headline value really worth the potential of looking like an idiot in the near future?

    1. dotdavid
      Thumb Up

      Re: Largest ever flying bird?

      That's your best ever post.

      No, wait...

  8. John Gamble
    Boffin

    Terror Bird

    Hey there, headline writers, there's only room for one Terror Bird in these parts. Come up with a different adjective, or we'll peck you to death.

    1. DropBear
      Joke

      Re: Terror Bird

      Well, ok then - is "Horror Bird" taken too or still available?

      1. John Gamble
        Boffin

        Re: Terror Bird

        It looks like they do have colloquial names ("bony-toothed birds", "false-toothed birds", etc.), but I think that's boring. How about using another word from the headline, and call them "Dragon Birds"?

        I expect a letter-writing campaign to begin immediately.

        1. John Gamble
          Thumb Up

          Re: Terror Bird

          They actually changed the headline! That was unexpected.

          Must... not... let... power... go.. to... head...

      2. xyz Silver badge

        Re: Terror Bird

        >is "Horror Bird" taken too or still available?

        That's reserved for Steph from BBC Breakfast

  9. Stevie

    Bah!

    Er ... the Ekranoplans had umptytump engines to push them through the air, and were anything but gliders.

    How did this thing survive grabbing stuff from the water and the resultant loss of airspeed if it couldn't climb under power ffs?

    Perhaps swallows gripped it by the oversized feathers and dragged it back into the air in the same way they help coconuts migrate?

    1. Andy E

      Re: Bah!

      African or European swallows?

      1. Stevie

        Re: African or European swallows

        Neither. Gondwanaland swallows.

    2. Denarius
      Happy

      Re: Bah!

      Ekronoplane aka Caspian Sea Monster had about 10 turbofans AFAIRC. Like a speedboat lots of power to get off water into wing in ground effect. Once in ground effect most engines could be shut down or back to flight idle. Many birds use dynamic soaring, especially seabirds. The latest glider designs are capable of this if the pilots can handle rapidly changing G loads. Would be probable that a large bird with those soaring wings would be able to use dynamic soaring on large ocean swells like albatrosses, even if this meant it restricted possible landing and breeding sites. A similar argument can be made for the larger pterosaurs. Not able to flap, but brilliant soaring animals. Smaller birds do dynamic soaring. eg swallows in right conditions. Look for birds diving across wind, turning into wind and climbing, then going cross wind again. It is using the increasing wind speed as it rises to maintain airspeed, thus gaining potential energy.

      1. Stevie

        Re: Bah!

        Agree, Denarius, but:

        a) There is more than one design of Ekranoplan. (Okay, nit-pick).

        2) How well does a soaring wing work in ground effect?

        #) How well does it work when the drag of a "trawl-kill" is factored in?

        %) How well does it work when the sea is robbing the air of thermals?

        I remain puzzled by how this thing could be a sea predator without flapping to accelerate after capturing prey.

        1. Denarius
          IT Angle

          Re: Bah!

          @Stevie 1) You mean WIG aka Wing in Ground effect. Lots of designs and some even flew. All based on Dr Messerschmidts work around WW2. Known long before that. Used on first powered flight around world to cross oceans as reduced drag cut fuel consumption. The ground proximity reduces wingtip vortices, hence energy loss, similar to winglets.. Best WIG wing shape seems to be a reversed delta with point at back, with significant curve down.

          2) Soaring aircraft work really well with GE as the effect is related to 1.5 times wingspan as a rule of thumb. Not to be used by gliders as safety research shows it is dangerous for unpowered flight as one tends to get strained thru fences, trees, whatever. Far safer to manage energy and stay flying at safe speed. OTOH, nice to extend the glide after final flare on hangar flights as one can be below stall and "float" along runway. Note, runway, not paddock..

          4) Not sure what you mean. Assume additional drag from fresh lunch. Same thing as for eagles. A bit more drag so it depends on wind strength and swell height.

          5) Dynamic soaring has nothing to do with thermals. It relies on a rapidly increasing wind speed as one gains altitude aka wind gradient. Due to ground friction the greatest wind speed change occurs within 50 feet of surface, which suits birds. Done it once in rotor. At 5000 feet ground crew could see the plane rocket up. Weird having nose pointing up steeply and have ASI stay just under Vmr for 30 seconds. Like a winch launch if you want the experience. So the steep wind gradient over open ocean could generate enough energy to support big birds in flight dragging a sizable snack.

    3. Mooseman Silver badge

      Re: Bah!

      The ekranoplan had a stack of engines to get it going, but actually ran on very few once it was in flight.

      Swallows would be useful only if they had previously dropped their coconuts.

  10. Chris G

    Pelagornis!

    Pelagornis on a stick!

    As a take off aid European or Africn Swallows would probably have been too small to be of much use, possibly their larger ancestor the North American Gulp may have been able to help.

  11. Mark 85

    Perhaps we need to consider the Frigate Bird as an example?

    It spends most of time in the air.... not quite as big however. Comparing the two birds, it seems they have much in common....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigatebird

    1. Martin Budden Silver badge
      Paris Hilton

      Re: Perhaps we need to consider the Frigate Bird as an example?

      You are right, frigate birds do soar over water for a long time, snatch fish from the surface while still in flight (they can't take off from the surface of the water), and also obtain food by stealing from other birds such as masked boobies. All in all a very good comparison.

      Icon: this comment includes both "snatch" and "boobies".

  12. P. Lee

    According to the abstract

    Lift:drag ratios derived from the fossil design are near the upper end of all existing birds. That part sounds solidly scientific if you've got the design.

    Unfortunately, if the design (apart from the lift:drag ratios) rules out flight because its above the theoretical maximum specs for flying birds (based on physics presumably), then it means either (a) we can't extrapolate animal characteristics from live species back into pre-history, which makes investigation of anything hazardous since we no longer have a solid starting point, or (b) the physics (air density?) was different, which again, means that the environment starting point (i.e. today) for extrapolation is not related to where we want to get to.

    It also begs the question, was anything else completely different? Was there more helium in the air, resulting in all living creatures having squeaky, comedy voices? I think I'd like that: T-Rex sounding a bit like a kitten. Actually it has serious implications. Once you admit you don't know what physics were in effect, you're going to have some problems with lots of other theories which rely on guesswork based on modern things.

    1. Denarius
      Trollface

      Re: According to the abstract

      @P. Lee. you should not question the key article of this cultures faith, "the present is the key to the past." Gets school children of all ages upset, Real boffins may test Einstein 10 ways a week and that's OK Upset R Dawkins and your can be in Trouble.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Linux

        Re: According to the abstract

        Don't fret. I'm working on reversing the present culture. We'll make The Transition looking backwards. Who wants to see where we are headed anyway?

        I reckon that large animals at that time must have been associated with more energy in the earth's system. Therefore higher windspeeds and therefore higher average wave heights and probably greater wavelengths, as in crest to crest. I guess with their speed they could probably catch a good one (surfing wave... as in Endless Summer, Jeffrey's bay style) mid-ocean and fly up and down, landing and launching at will. Until the wave hit a steep piece of land, as in cliff. The updraught gave it a dynamic flight to the top of an archeo-Cape Point for the night's kip.

        Next morning they just jump off into the terminator breeze or latest gale sweeping past. Out to sea for a few hours and start another day catching waves.. and playing with the birds.

        When the weather cooled down and air density decreased as oxygen, CO2 and water vapour levels dropped the fun stopped.... wipe out! Again and again.

        Eventually only their smaller mutant drag-lift ratio runt offspring survived... what we call Albatross etc. per previous references.

        Not an evolutionary dead-end at all. Just plain evolution!!! Found any archeo-albatrosses lately? :-)

    2. YetAnotherLocksmith Silver badge

      Re: According to the abstract

      One factor people seem to forget is the oxygen percentage of the atmosphere was higher. Another is that the sun was brighter. So you had both more power available from the one-source-to-rule-them-all, & more chemical energy/power available more easily.

      Hence bigger creatures that are not energetically viable today.

      1. Denarius

        Re: According to the abstract

        @ YetAnotherLocksmith

        Oxygen I get. Big insects in Devonian indicate maybe guess 30%. But brighter sun ? Everything I have read suggests a cooler sun in far distant past, assuming we have an accurate model for sun like stars. ITIRC one of the current conundrums in astrophysics is why the Sun is so stable for so long.

  13. Marshalltown
    Coat

    Anyone notice

    ... how common the "it shouldn't have been able to get off the ground ..." meme is in paleontology? Apparently the following dialog is very comon:

    Paleontologist: I have a really large winged [brid/reptile/?]. How did it fly?

    Physicist: What are the dimensions and mass?

    Paleontologist: Wing span of 20 feet or more. Estimating from bone thickness, muscle attachment sites on the bones, and comparison to modern birds, about **** kg. The error in that figure will be pretty big.

    Physicist: Tappity-tap, tap, tap. It couldn't.

    It is pretty obvious that they got off the ground or off the water sufficiently well to appear in the fossil record for several million years. Pterodactyls and pteranodons did too, for that matter, and a few were even bigger. The problem couldn't possibly be the physics could it?

  14. Nibinaear

    Yep

    It would be great if we could bring this back and let it loose sometime.

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