back to article Slip-streaming Tesla, Oz battery-maker plots home-biz launch

Australian battery researcher and manufacturer Redflow is hoping to get a jump on Tesla, prepping its own entry into the residential battery market. The news puts yet another player into what used to be regarded as a tight niche. Home storage was strictly a matter for the off-grid user, and it wasn't until recently that the …

  1. This post has been deleted by its author

  2. Dafyd Colquhoun

    Flow batteries are the opposite of everything else

    I'm surprised that Redflow haven't mentioned that flow batteries (including theirs) are different to all other batteries. The prefer to be empty, not charged. Not so good for a backup application, but OK for solar load shifting. And they need pumps to circulate electrolyte, and those pumps use power.

    I've never considered lead-acid charging to be complex. They float charge with a constant voltage source quite nicely, and don't have the thermal runaway problems of more complex chemistry. They might have a low energy density, but how often do you pick up and move a battery bank that is not installed in a car?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Flow batteries are the opposite of everything else

      "I've never considered lead-acid charging to be complex."

      Float charging doesn't utilise the full capacity and eventually the battery will sulfate. Serious lead acid systems use 4-stage chargers; high constant current until the internal resistance starts to rise, then a slower charge to the full voltage, then periodic maintenance shots in which the voltage is briefly peaked to get rid of sulfate. Some chargers, during the high current phase, stop charging periodically for a short time to allow recovery. This maximises capacity, battery life, and charge efficiency. The charger usually takes additional input from a battery temperature sensor to protect against high temperatures. Standby chargers nowadays may well be three-stage.

      I can assure you that if you have, say, 7 off 110AH domestic and 2 off 70AH starter batteries in a boat installation, the economics of complex chargers are excellent.

  3. JeffyPoooh
    Pint

    "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

    Obvious hogwash.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

      If you pay 50 cents/kwh during day/evening and 15 cents/kwh at night, you need to load shift 45,000 kwh to pay for them. That's only 12.5 kwh per day over a decade, which is a lot less than the average person uses in California.

      1. JeffyPoooh
        Pint

        Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

        Doug S tried: "only 12.5 kwh per day"

        It's too bad that their products are rated 8, 10, or 11 kWh. Not 12.5. (Assuming a one cycle per day model as you've proposed.)

        Typically when they quote a price ("$15,000"), it'll be for the cheapest version (likely 8 kWh).

        Their website also mentions the need for 'system integration'. Sounds like more money.

        You've also neglected Time Value of Money; interest rates are low, but not zero.

        Also risk. If it's not got a 15 year warranty, then you might be left high and dry.

        If it's only break even after 15 years, why bother? Just don't bother.

        I take exception to the word "easily". Seems false, even with cherry picked ToD rates.

      2. drone2903 in Kanuckistant

        Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

        Well at those price, I would go off grid completly.

        I am really sorry if it is the market price for your area.

        Over here ( almost ashame to say it ) we pay around 7 cent ( in Can money) per Kw, no day/night shit, at the customer level. Some big user have a better deal.

    2. JP19

      Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

      Hogwash yep.

      Australian electricity seems to be around 14 AU cents/kWh so 15,000 AUD would buy 107 MWh of mains electricity. Your battery would have to provide a bit more than 29kWh per day every day for 10 years. Presumably the 15,000 AUD was only for 2 x 10kWh batteries since that is all the Hackett bloke said he would be trialling.

      Of course that would only be if the electricity you are charging with is free which it isn't when it comes from a large and expensive set of solar panels which will also be half knackered in 10 years.

      I would also be very impressed if their batteries manage daily deep cycling every day for 10 years, presumably they loose capacity and would have to be oversized to maintain an average over their life.

      "you need to load shift 45,000 kwh to pay for them."

      If it were economical to time shift electricity with batteries why don't the electricity generators do it with much more economy of scale?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

        Which state are you in? In SA 25 - 36c/kWh is more the norm

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

          "Which state are you in? In SA 25 - 36c/kWh is more the norm"

          It's also worth noting what the price of leccy was 10 years ago compared to now and what it might cost in 10 years time. Assuming the the fuel wars haven't started and Mad Max only cares where his next tank of petrol is coming from, having no need for an electric razor any more.

    3. Your alien overlord - fear me

      Re: "...$15,000 easily recoverable over ten years..."

      He's probably talking Aussie dollars so that's about 7000 in proper money. Over 10 years means 700 quid a year or nearly 60 quid a month. What's your current leccy bill like then?

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Battery management full/empty

    How is this better than relying on voltage to signal the state of the batteries to the charge controller? It seems like this system is totally abandoning the possibility of load shifting, so that in places like California where you have very different peak versus off peak power pricing you can fill up your battery at night when it is cheap to use during the day/evening when it is the most expensive.

    If the system doesn't know how empty the batteries are, just that they are "not full" it is a lot harder to make the best decisions about when to allow charging.

  5. boris740

    Super capacitors can handle load surge demand without the weight penalty of Lead-Acid batteries.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Super capacitors can handle load surge demand without the weight penalty of Lead-Acid batteries.

    1. Will Godfrey Silver badge

      Oh really?

      Where can you get really high capacity supercaps that also have a sensible peak voltage, and how are you going to match the essentially exponential voltage decay to the requirement for a substantially constant voltage?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oh really?

        "Where can you get really high capacity supercaps that also have a sensible peak voltage"

        You don't think that people who spout guff about supercapacitors, thorium reactors, hydrogen fuelled vehicles, fusion and space elevators as if they were all no brainers have actually got any real world experience with any of them, do you?

  7. Super Fast Jellyfish
    Joke

    ZBM

    Anyone else misread that as ZPM? Pretty sure one of those could power your house for years!

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Amazing how quickly batteries are coming along with their fancy tech, by you can already grab hold of Batteriser which increases your AA & AAA batteries by 8X, by keeping the voltage constantly above what my devices consider "dead"... it's a real shame not many more people know about this!

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/batteriser-extend-battery-life-by-up-to-8x/x/4042531#/story

    1. Lionel Baden
      Thumb Up

      ahhahahahaahaaa

      That was worth reading :D

  9. JP19

    grab hold of Batteriser

    Wow Batteriser shills are searching the internet and spamming anything to do with batteries?

    The Batteriser is a complete scam, personally I doubt it will ever ship because if it does it will promptly be shown to be complete rubbish. It isn't worth manufacturing, however, it has managed so far to extract $0.3 million from fools on the internet.

    At least in this forum they can't delete every negative comment like they do on indiegogo and their youtube channel(s).

    There is a reason when searching google for Batteriser "Batteriser scam" is top of the list of suggestions.

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